Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical?

[cooleddie74]

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical

Why would Reliant allow both her captain and first-officer to beam to the surface of Ceti Alpha V?

Why not? The film is set in 2285, not the Next Gen era of apparently stricter and more formal shipboard rules and traditions for certain senior officers participating in landing parties and away teams. This isn't that many years after TOS, in which it seemed every Starfleet captain, his grandma and pet goldfish beamed down with their landing parties and took the same risks if not greater than their junior officers and security personnel. To me the behavior of Terrell and Chekov in beaming down together to Ceti Alpha V makes perfect sense in context of 23rd century Starfleet behavior that we became accustomed to in the Original Series and Animated Series.

And as per Spock Prime thinking that Pine Kirk looks just like Shatner Kirk, of course he would. Spock recognized nuKirk instantly when he turned around in the cave on Delta Vega and laid eyes on the man he had just rescued from being turned into CGI monster chow. Chris Pine's James T. Kirk is supposed to look just like William Shatner's and vice versa. I thought this was naturally assumed and the producer's intent all along. It's certainly what I've thought since I first saw the 2009 film so it's not anything big nor open for debate.

The only reason we don't think Chris Pine Kirk looks just like young, TOS-era Shatner Kirk is because they're different actors. Our perceptions aren't what's important, though....the characters are the same. The face Spock Prime saw in that cave was the face he hadn't seen in the flesh in almost a century. The one he served many years with and the face of the man who was the greatest friend he'd ever known.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical

I used Terrell and Chekov in one chapter of my e-novella Mere Anarchy: The Darkness Drops Again (it was a lot of fun writing dialogue meant to sound like Paul Winfield was delivering it), and I had Chekov reflect on how Terrell reminded him of Kirk because they both disliked staying behind while their crews went into peril or made new discoveries, and thus both tended to lead landing parties themselves.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical

That's a plot hole with something like 90% of TOS. Really, the captain shouldn't be going on landing parties at all -- that's not his or her job.

Of course, the main character goes wherever the plot demands he or she go. It wouldn't make sense from a storytelling standpoint to leave the captain on the ship while his crew sees all the action.

Depending on what you think his uniform was in Star Trek II, Chekov may have been the exec and chief sciences officer on the Reliant.

The Reliant senior science officer was "Stoney" Beach, AFAIK.

I used Terrell and Chekov in one chapter of my e-novella Mere Anarchy: The Darkness Drops Again (it was a lot of fun writing dialogue meant to sound like Paul Winfield was delivering it), and I had Chekov reflect on how Terrell reminded him of Kirk because they both disliked staying behind while their crews went into peril or made new discoveries, and thus both tended to lead landing parties themselves.

I've always thought Terrell was an underrated character who could've had a much larger role in the general TOS scheme. I was happy he appeared in the MU novel Sorrows of Empire and a comic book short-story about the Gorn. Paul Winfield has a special place in my heart because he played Lt. Traxler in The Terminator and was the only person who believed Sarah and Kyle's claims.

--Sran

 

[Christopher]

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical

Of course, the main character goes wherever the plot demands he or she go. It wouldn't make sense from a storytelling standpoint to leave the captain on the ship while his crew sees all the action.

Unless the captain isn't the main character. You could have a show where the lead characters belong to the team that goes on missions and their commanding officer is a supporting character, as with Stargate SG-1.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical

Unless the captain isn't the main character. You could have a show where the lead characters belong to the team that goes on missions and their commanding officer is a supporting character, as with Stargate SG-1.

Not to hijack this, but why hasn't an idea like that been explored for Star Trek? It's not the traditional Trek format, but it might make for an interesting series. I am, of course, speaking only about TV series and not books or e-novels, as I know that some of these focus on characters who aren't captains or have a commanding role.

--Sran

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical

Unless the captain isn't the main character. You could have a show where the lead characters belong to the team that goes on missions and their commanding officer is a supporting character, as with Stargate SG-1.

Not to hijack this, but why hasn't an idea like that been explored for Star Trek? It's not the traditional Trek format, but it might make for an interesting series. I am, of course, speaking only about TV series and not books or e-novels, as I know that some of these focus on characters who aren't captains or have a commanding role.

--Sran

Not quite the same thing, but wasn't the original concept of TNG for Picard to be the older, wiser captain who does the diplomacy thing and stays on the ship, while Riker was the action hero who goes on landing parties and gets in to scrapes?

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical

Not quite the same thing, but wasn't the original concept of TNG for Picard to be the older, wiser captain who does the diplomacy thing and stays on the ship, while Riker was the action hero who goes on landing parties and gets in to scrapes?

TNG's first season shaped up that way, with Riker getting lots of screen time. Things changed once the producers realized that Data and Worf were more popular with fans, and the show become much more Klingon-centric with the occasional Data-wants-to-be-human episode thrown in. Riker's character probably changed the least amount of anyone in the entire series.

--Sran

 

[Commishsleer]

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical

I don't regard Kirk being down as a plot-hole. IMO Kirk was more equivalent to say Captain Cook, discovering and exploring - making 1st contacts. Captain Cook didn't stay on ship, he went out and 'discovered' Australia and uhhmm Hawaii. And if sometimes you get killed by the natives because you didn't stay safe on the ship then that's a risk you take.

Also Kirk tells Spock several times he has to 'feel' the situation. So its Kirk's style to beam down and assess the situation to judge the safety for his crew and the Federation.

Terrell probably beamed down because he and Chekov would have to convince Marcus that the planet was suitable. Marcus wasn't going to accept second hand reports.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical

Captain Cook wasn't a member of Starfleet. As for Project Genesis, it wasn't Marcus' place to tell Starfleet officers how to do their jobs. If she wasn't willing to accept a report from Beach or another member of Terrell's staff (approved by him or otherwise), she shouldn't have relied on them to choose a test site.

--Sran

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical

Captain Cook wasn't a member of Starfleet. As for Project Genesis, it wasn't Marcus' place to tell Starfleet officers how to do their jobs.

It was their job to find a test site that was acceptable to Marcus. Period, full stop.

Oh, and Starfleet has no standards or regulations to govern Kirk's behavior, because Starfleet is fictitious - it exists to support the characters in their motivations and back stories, not to inhibit their behavior where that hurts the drama.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical

It was their job to find a test site that was acceptable to Marcus. Period, full stop.

Yes, a test site that was acceptable. Dr. Marcus wasn't a military officer. She had no authority to tell Terrell how to run his ship.

Oh, and Starfleet has no standards or regulations to govern Kirk's behavior, because Starfleet is fictitious - it exists to support the characters in their motivations and back stories, not to inhibit their behavior where that hurts the drama.

Your point?

--Sran

 

[Christopher]

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical

Unless the captain isn't the main character. You could have a show where the lead characters belong to the team that goes on missions and their commanding officer is a supporting character, as with Stargate SG-1.

Not to hijack this, but why hasn't an idea like that been explored for Star Trek? It's not the traditional Trek format, but it might make for an interesting series. I am, of course, speaking only about TV series and not books or e-novels, as I know that some of these focus on characters who aren't captains or have a commanding role.

--Sran

Not quite the same thing, but wasn't the original concept of TNG for Picard to be the older, wiser captain who does the diplomacy thing and stays on the ship, while Riker was the action hero who goes on landing parties and gets in to scrapes?

That's right. Riker was meant to be the Kirk surrogate, with Picard as his elder-statesman mentor. But Patrick Stewart stole the show, and eventually pushed the producers to give him more action and romance, so the early rule about the captain not leading the away teams fell by the wayside.

That rule also fell away because its formulator, David Gerrold, left the show very early. In his 1973 book The World of Star Trek, he'd complained about the conceit of the captain leading the missions, and proposed the alternative of a regular set of characters forming a "contact team" who would handle the landing parties, alien encounters, and the like. Having it be Riker's job to lead the away missions was sort of a compromise between that idea and the TV-show need to have the lead characters drive the action.

Captain Cook wasn't a member of Starfleet.

Ahh, but Roddenberry did model Starfleet pretty strongly on the Royal Navy in the age of exploration (and in the Horatio Hornblower novels that inspired him). It was analogous in a lot of ways -- the navy would often be responsible for exploring new lands, and they'd be very far from home, out of direct communication, so that the ship commanders would be responsible for handling contact, diplomacy, and political or military decisions.

 

[Commishsleer]

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical

It was their job to find a test site that was acceptable to Marcus. Period, full stop.

Yes, a test site that was acceptable. Dr. Marcus wasn't a military officer. She had no authority to tell Terrell how to run his ship.


--Sran

Carol Marcus was not going to accept a dodgy test site.
She clearly knew Terrell and Chekov wanted to get out of the tedious task of searching early - as far as Marcus was concerned they still had 6 months to look for the perfect site.

I believe she would have halted the project if necessary. Carol Marcus in TWOK was sort of baddass.

And she was telling Terrell what to do all over the place.

 

[YARN]

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical

Oh, and Starfleet has no standards or regulations to govern Kirk's behavior, because Starfleet is fictitious - it exists to support the characters in their motivations and back stories, not to inhibit their behavior where that hurts the drama.

If we were to accept this standard, we would have to give up the reasoned discussion of fiction.

A: "Why didn't the cops arrest the bad guy when they had the chance in act 1?"

B: "There are no cops, it's just fiction. If they'd arrested him, they would've also arrested the drama. We need the big bad to have the showdown in act 3, so that's how it is."

I don't think you mean to suggest that "anything goes," so take this with a grain of salt. It's just dangerous to be too casual in dismissing critical questions on the grounds that it's all just fiction.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical

Depending on what you think his uniform was in Star Trek II, Chekov may have been the exec and chief sciences officer on the Reliant.

The Reliant senior science officer was "Stoney" Beach, AFAIK.

Hmm, maybe. Beach's uniform was like Sulu's (gold undershirt) so I thought Beach might have just been filling in for Chekov at sciences while he was away.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical

Hmm, maybe. Beach's uniform was like Sulu's (gold undershirt) so I thought Beach might have just been filling in for Chekov at sciences while he was away.

Except that Beach was at the science station while Chekov was on the bridge, and he gave the initial report on Ceti Alpha V's surface conditions.

--Sran

 

[C.E. Evans]

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical

Hmm, maybe. Beach's uniform was like Sulu's (gold undershirt) so I thought Beach might have just been filling in for Chekov at sciences while he was away.

Except that Beach was at the science station while Chekov was on the bridge, and he gave the initial report on Ceti Alpha V's surface conditions.

The only thing that makes me think that Beach wasn't the science officer was that is uniform was consistent with helmsmen and engineers, whereas Chekov's could have been for sciences (IIRC, Chekov did spout some technobabble regarding an energy reading he found on the planet's surface).

Maybe Chekov was manning a special station dedicated to Project Genesis while Beach was at the regular sciences station?

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical

The only thing that makes me think that Beach wasn't the science officer was that is uniform was consistent with helmsmen and engineers, whereas Chekov's could have been for sciences (IIRC, Chekov did spout some technobabble regarding an energy reading he found on the planet's surface).

Maybe Chekov was manning a special station dedicated to Project Genesis while Beach was at the regular sciences station?

Hard to say. I could cite non-cannon sources to illustrate my point, but that's not fair. Not everyone's read the same material.

--Sran

 

[Christopher]

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical

We've seen people in the wrong color uniform for their posts before, like Spock wearing gold in the second pilot (though since he was both first officer and science officer, I guess either could've worked), or Charlene Masters in "The Alternative Factor" wearing blue despite being an engineer (and having no rank stripes despite being a lieutenant). Data was effectively TNG's science-officer character, but he was in operations gold because it looked better with his makeup.

Come to think of it, Harry Kim was nominally the operations manager and wore gold, but he functioned as the de facto science officer just as Data had. Maybe the same goes for Beach. I can see how an ops manager could fill a role similar to that of a science officer, since their job is to coordinate the activities of the crew, allocate resources, and so on, and on a ship primarily dedicated to science, they'd have to keep on top of the science-related activities. It's a reach, but there's certainly more than a little canonical evidence to support it.

 

[M'Sharak]

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical

Oh, and Starfleet has no standards or regulations to govern Kirk's behavior, because Starfleet is fictitious - it exists to support the characters in their motivations and back stories, not to inhibit their behavior where that hurts the drama.

If we were to accept this standard, we would have to give up the reasoned discussion of fiction.

A: "Why didn't the cops arrest the bad guy when they had the chance in act 1?"

B: "There are no cops, it's just fiction. If they'd arrested him, they would've also arrested the drama. We need the big bad to have the showdown in act 3, so that's how it is."

I don't think you mean to suggest that "anything goes," so take this with a grain of salt. It's just dangerous to be too casual in dismissing critical questions on the grounds that it's all just fiction.

You're lecturing again, after having been directed to refrain from doing that very thing. Warned; comments to PM.