Spoilers Would Picard actually want to...

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Picard' started by PatB1974, Aug 4, 2020.

  1. Pubert

    Pubert Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    people change but also stay the same. Most people’s morals don’t change for instance. Most people who have a good moral code in their 40s and 50s usually don’t become murderers in their 70s unless there is a mental disability. My dad is 85. Other then physical infirmity starting to slow him down hes still very much like when he was younger in personality, like, dislikes etc. The biggest change is the physicality.
     
  2. Mage

    Mage Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    And for every person like that I can show you a person who's morals have changed, either for better or worse. Or their political opinions. People that used to be homophobic but aren't anymore. People who used to be conservative but aren't anymore. Or the other way around. You're using one person as an example that NO ONE changes. Think about that for a minute, ok?
     
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  3. Pubert

    Pubert Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Again I don’t agree. For Picard to change so much in less than 20 years is not realistic. His moral center is gone. The strong moral captain we once knew was a shade of his former self. Of the two versions the TNG version of Picard is far superior in command and morality.
     
  4. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The only unrealistic thing is expectations towards this show.
     
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  5. Mage

    Mage Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You clearly have no idea what trauma can do to a person.
     
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  6. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That's OK. Many Trek writers don't either. Fortunately, Picard and Discovery are actually willing to explore it.
     
  7. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Commodore Commodore

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    I feel like I'm missing part of your argument because, yes, duh. That's the story. Picard loses faith and is broken by the monumental failure of the Romulan Relief effort and the presumably billions of people who died as a result. Also, the fact that Data died on his watch.

    The show is about him getting his faith back and becoming the man he was.

    Also, he's not changed by the passage of time, he's changed by trauma.
     
  8. Pubert

    Pubert Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Trauma? Starfleet captains are trained to overcome trauma. They make life and death decisions everyday when they command a starship. Picard was accosted by the Borg 30 years ago. He dealt with it during the end years of tng and again in first contact. I do not get how he hasn’t overcome it yet.
     
  9. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Commodore Commodore

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    And will continue to do so for the rest of his life as we see in Picard because he never overcomes his trauma at the hands of the Borg. He manages his trauma, which is a very different thing from healing from it. This is also consistent with the TV show rather than an invention of Picard. "I, Bog" and "First Contact" both make it clear that while fit for captaincy, Picard is a mess regarding the Borg.

    Which is saying that Picard is extremely durable and extremely capable but only human.

    What's the point of doing so? seems to be the obvious answer. Picard torpedoed his career in Starfleet on a gamble that he was too important to cashier and that the Federation would ultimately see the Romulan mission as a black and white issue versus, "We tried, we failed. We've lost one of our planets on this boondoggle. Time to move on." If Picard got over his depression, he's still an ordinary civilian who failed to save billions. That's gotta weigh on the conscience.

    It takes the chance of atoning for Data's death to get him back in the saddle.
     
  10. Pubert

    Pubert Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    manages it. He nearly had a heart attack going on the Borg cube. He wasn’t that nervous In First Contact. It was a deactivated cube also.
     
  11. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Commodore Commodore

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    Yes, he's 20 years older and not under constant Starfleet medical and mental care. Hugh manages to help him manage it with the power of friendship.

    I also attribute First Contact functionality to pure rage.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2020
  12. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You don't know what trauma is until you've actually been through it. I went through something three years ago (which I'm not going to talk about) that still triggers me to this day. I was never in the military, but I have friends who were and they were sent to Afghanistan. They still have PTSD. I have an older friend who was in Vietnam, he's told me some of the stories, and he still isn't over that yet either.
     
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  13. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The thing about trauma is that it is highly subjective. And treating every trauma as the same ignores so much of the personal side as to be insensitive. What is a trauma to one person is inconsequential to another.

    Now, with regards to Picard, I would love to believe that the Federation has decent enough mental health support that it would largely able to cope. However, the dramatic presentation of Star Trek has pretty much indicated that not to be the case. Barclay and Picard being excellent examples, but also Nog. Simply put, Picard probably thought he was "over it" without recognizing that his reactions could very well still be governed by that trauma. Researchers are still discovering just how deep trauma can go. And it can run incredibly deep.

    But, the more important aspect is that expecting people to "get over it" or "manage it" is far too simplistic of a term to be applied to most traumas, much less a deeply dehumanizing and helpless experience that Picard went through.
     
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  14. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Commodore Commodore

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    I think it probably does have decent mental health but the thing about mental health is:

    * You should not attempt to encounter the thing that traumatized you in the first place again. Picard does.

    * Starfleet officers regularly encounter things beyond traumatizing that would leave most people curdled in a floor.

    Starfleet is basically CALL OF CTHULHU in Space but you can recover your mental health with a speech about how we've evolved past superstitions and bettered ourselves.
     
  15. Pubert

    Pubert Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I’ve had traumas myself but then again I’m not a Starfleet captain. Starfleet captains are the best of the best. It takes a lot to crack one. After 30 years I would think picards trading and his own strong character would have got him past it. It’s clear that Jean Luc Picard is no longer Starfleet material. He key Seven take weapons and murder an unarmed woman and he had a woman on his crew that murdered her ex lover aboard the very ship they are all traveling on. No he’s a shell of what he once was. I don’t see any of the TNG Captain Picard left. Now that he’s a golem there will be even less because he’ll be whining about being a android for the next season.
     
  16. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Which is why we see them go crazy so often.
     
  17. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Commodore Commodore

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    * Commodore Decker
    * Captain Ron Tracy
    * Admiral Cartwright
    * Rudy Ransom
    * Cal Hudson

    Captain Picard has definitely never had his crew murder or attempt to someone except for:

    * Worf and Duras
    * Data and Fajo
    * All those thieves Picard killed in the Die Hard episode.
    * The aliens the crew murdered under mind-control in "The Game"

    Given Jurati was mind-controlled, I tend to think Picard would be inclined to forgive her given the same thing happened to me.

    Seven also very clearly LIED to Picard in order to kill her son's murderer.

    I admit, I kind of see the old Picard when he single handedly ends the Synth ban, defeats an ancient Romulan conspiracy, and saves the entire galaxy. All through appealing to the better nature of both Synths and man.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2020
  18. dupersuper

    dupersuper Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    To be fair, he only killed their leader. The others died in the sweep. Picard did want to go back for them but the leader had other plans.

    Are you thinking of Conundrum?
     
  19. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Commodore Commodore

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    Yeah, the one they're brainwashed by the primitive space faring race in. I got those two mixed up.

    Which is what I think of is the closest equivalent for Doctor Jurati.

    She's not completely out of her mind but she was at greatly diminished capacity by forced mind-meld. It's not precisely lawful but Picard did break a lot of them to save the galaxy.
     
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  20. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yes. Like I said before, you can't get more TNG than that.