Women of LotR/The Hobbit

[Gaith]

^ True.

Also the giant spider guarding Mordor is female. Nobody ever wants to discuss her character or include her in discussions of female Tolkien characters

0/10, would not bang.

... I'll show myself out now.


No, but seriously, I'd watch the hell out of a The Hobbit One-Shot: Galadriel or one of the other women characters, showing them going about their daily routine, or making a key governmental or family decision or something.

 

[Saito S]

^ True.

Also the giant spider guarding Mordor is female. Nobody ever wants to discuss her character or include her in discussions of female Tolkien characters

0/10, would not bang.

... I'll show myself out now.

Ew.

I agree with Kodos about your comments on Homer and LOTR. For myself as well, it's one of the reasons I honestly prefer the movies pretty much across the board. They are the best fantasy movies I've ever seen, and when evaluating them on their own (i.e. disregarding the fact that they must work within the confines of the books themselves), the relative lack of strong, important female characters is one of its biggest weaknesses.

The books... well, the world is massive and absolutely fascinating. As an avid world-builder myself, I really appreciate that part of it, and no small amount of what made the movies good is owed to that. But, I found the narrative itself of the books to be nigh unto unapproachable half the time.

Eowyn is definitely one of my favorite characters out of the whole lot, in part because - as had been pointed out in this thread - she was much more ordinary, as a woman of Middle-Earth, than the likes of Arwen or Galadriel, in addition to being the only one to actually ride into battle and acquit herself there. The story of her personal struggle - not only against the threat of Mordor that literally everyone in the story faces, but also against the expectations of her society - was easily the most compelling of any of the non-Hobbit characters. Fantasy obviously leaves room for such stories with women, since it tends to be modeled after real medieval societies when it comes to things such as equality between the sexes (or more precisely, a lack thereof). Though I find myself tired of that as a world element, actually; these days I more often crave stories that eschew adhering to reality in that way, instead creating a world where women have much more freedom to pursue their chosen goals in life (which is why I went that direction with my own fantasy world concept). Not complete, perfect egalitarianism, necessarily, but not the lopsided, oppressive patriarchy that most fantasy seems to default to.

No, but seriously, I'd watch the hell out of a The Hobbit One-Shot: Galadriel or one of the other women characters, showing them going about their daily routine, or making a key governmental or family decision or something.

Yeah, I'd be very interested in something like that, as well.

And as far as this thread: it's been said many times before, but there's nothing inherently wrong with acknowledging that, yes, we humans tend to often find other humans attractive/cute/hot/whatever word you want to use. The problem is when a character or the actor portraying them (women, more often than not) are reduced to having no more value than their level of attractiveness/hotness/what have you.

 

[Professor Zoom]

In fairness to this particular thread, though, it's not as though one can really say much about any of of the Middle Earth characters, as they were written to be archetypal/straightforward. What is there to say about Aragorn? He's brave. He loves his woman. He fights good. He's noble. The most complex character is the drug addict, and even there it's not so much his actual personality as his struggle with addiction that makes him interesting. One of the reasons I prefer the movies to the books is that with human actors on screen, one can at least pretend the characters are real, living beings, whereas the books always felt more like a pastiche of Homer with old British rather than ancient Greek flavors.

I would agree with this. I find Tolkein's writing pretty dull and lifeless. I trudged through those books... including the Hobbit. And I also agree, the actor's at least bring a humanity to the characters the books don't.

I think, though, it would be interesting to talk about that, rather than, "hey, guys, who's the hottest chick on Middle Earth?" and then follow it up with, "Who's the hottest chick in the Marvel movies?"

PS: I think we have totally ruined the intent of the thread, but turned it into something way more interesting.

 

[sojourner]

I would guess if Tolkien had written LOTR today, Merry, Sam, and Legolas would be female. Though Frodo could work just as well being female with Sam a male. Though in that case I wonder if some people would object to the perceived finale weakness of Frodo (Frodette? Froda?) and having to be "rescued" by Sam.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Gaith,

I still laugh remembering this mailing list I was on when the first LOTR movie came out. There was a quite taciturn fellow who only posted rational dull posts and had been doing so for years. All of a sudden in the middle of a Fellowship of the Ring discussion he pipes up with "You know I'm not gay but I would do Legolas in a heartbeat".

And I agree with the above, if it was written today the supporting class of the less strong and more dependent would be female.

 

[Noddy]

Default really? I think the maleness of LOTR stands out quite a bit these days.

I don't mean default in terms of what material is being produced--even though it is still predominately white male leads, but in terms of mindset. White straight male is the default mind set and anything that is not that is "other," and judged very differently. If you are a female character in a genre film, the audience base first seems to judge you by your attractiveness. Not your ability, not your smart, but if you got great boobs.

This thread is a fine example.

Not which female character of Middle Earth was a great fighter, helped the heroes, WAS a hero, but who was "hot."

So a thread designed to discuss a certain aspect to the characters means that those who create it are incapable of appreciating other aspects of the characters? For what it's worth, my favorite Eowyn moment has little to do with her physical appearance; I love the moment in RotK where she responds to the Witch-King's taunting by removing her helmet and saying "I am no man!", before killing the evil S.O.B. Great moment.

 

[2takesfrakes]

The fact is, even in a trilogy, each movie is but so long. We do not have time to "get to know" characters. How delish the actors playing them are is just a shortcut to getting us to like their characters. You see it in life even more than in the movies, too. Beautiful people tend to be the most popular. It isn't an absolute, but, I mean ... nobody would be surprised by that, surely.

Strength of character and whatnot mainly comes in the form of cliché, anyway. And the bad guy often is an evil Capitolist, a Nazi, a Drug Dealer ... someone we're obviously meant to want to see get their asses kicked. And Sauron couldn't be more of a cliché, in how absolutely EVIL he is ... he has no middle ground. No grey area. He's only here to be destroyed. With a villian like that in your movie, how can you expect your heroes to shine with such great depth and sophistocation?

It's non sequitur, when you think about it. And very often, baddies are played by an actor who, even if they were hot in their day, have aged into character actors. The young studd usurps, or just kicks the living shit out of the old man, in most of these movies, and runs things the way they "should" be run. Lord of the Rings falls in line with that cliché, very nicely.

 

[Shanndee]

Eowyn is definitely one of my favorite characters out of the whole lot, in part because - as had been pointed out in this thread - she was much more ordinary, as a woman of Middle-Earth, than the likes of Arwen or Galadriel, in addition to being the only one to actually ride into battle and acquit herself there. The story of her personal struggle - not only against the threat of Mordor that literally everyone in the story faces, but also against the expectations of her society - was easily the most compelling of any of the non-Hobbit characters.



And as far as this thread: it's been said many times before, but there's nothing inherently wrong with acknowledging that, yes, we humans tend to often find other humans attractive/cute/hot/whatever word you want to use. The problem is when a character or the actor portraying them (women, more often than not) are reduced to having no more value than their level of attractiveness/hotness/what have you.

Thank you. I have just started reading this thread and I was preparing myself to come in to say the same thing. I think you stated it better than I could...so thank you!

I had stopped reading fantasy for a long time, due in large part to the lack of believable/relatable female characters and story lines. I know authors like Tolkien were a product of their time, but what is the excuse for some of the more current authors?


re:this thread
Exactly. My friends and I are currently enamoured with Tom Mison (Sleepy Hollow). Do we comment on his attractiveness, of course! But these comments are always part of a larger conversation. There is nothing wrong with "hot", but grading people like pieces of meat and judging them against each other is hugely problematic.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Default really? I think the maleness of LOTR stands out quite a bit these days.

I don't mean default in terms of what material is being produced--even though it is still predominately white male leads, but in terms of mindset. White straight male is the default mind set and anything that is not that is "other," and judged very differently. If you are a female character in a genre film, the audience base first seems to judge you by your attractiveness. Not your ability, not your smart, but if you got great boobs.

This thread is a fine example.

Not which female character of Middle Earth was a great fighter, helped the heroes, WAS a hero, but who was "hot."

So a thread designed to discuss a certain aspect to the characters means that those who create it are incapable of appreciating other aspects of the characters?

I don't know. You did choose perhaps the shallowest of aspects to talk about. Please continue if you want, but at least recognize it for what it is.

 

[Gaith]

For what it's worth, my favorite Eowyn moment has little to do with her physical appearance; I love the moment in RotK where she responds to the Witch-King's taunting by removing her helmet and saying "I am no man!", before killing the evil S.O.B. Great moment.

I found that moment horribly overcooked. It would have been great had she stabbed him and then muttered "I am no man" while walking away. But to take off her helmet, stand real tall, and gloat about how awesome she is to be a female warrior while the very dangerous baddie is still very much alive was lame audience pandering.

 

[2takesfrakes]

It would have been great had she stabbed him and then muttered "I am no man" while walking away. But to take off her helmet, stand real tall, and gloat about how awesome she is to be a female warrior while the very dangerous baddie is still very much alive was lame audience pandering.

Even this would be a bit of a cliché. Can there really be degrees of cheese? Admittedly, though ... it is a Catch22, of sorts. Were I Peter Jackson, I would've just left the "I'm a woman" bit out, because for one ... it's evident, is it not? Just have her take her helmet off and indicate he's surprised by the fact and just have her dispose of him quick and tidy.

But if there was an insistance the line be in there, give it to some nobody on-looker to comment on. Having it come from somebody nameless, in a way, gives it more "weight," if you like. But I really do hate how her Moment of Triumph has more to do with the gender she was born as, than anything else she brought to the battle.

 

[Gov Kodos]

It would have been great had she stabbed him and then muttered "I am no man" while walking away. But to take off her helmet, stand real tall, and gloat about how awesome she is to be a female warrior while the very dangerous baddie is still very much alive was lame audience pandering.

Even this would be a bit of a cliché. Can there really be degrees of cheese? Admittedly, though ... it is a Catch22, of sorts. Were I Peter Jackson, I would've just left the "I'm a woman" bit out, because for one ... it's evident, is it not? Just have her take her helmet off and indicate he's surprised by the fact and just have her dispose of him quick and tidy.

But if there was an insistance the line be in there, give it to some nobody on-looker to comment on. Having it come from somebody nameless, in a way, gives it more "weight," if you like. But I really do hate how her Moment of Triumph has more to do with the gender she was born as, than anything else she brought to the battle.

The book is better with that, there is no dialogue, just a straight up fight. The scene would have played better as it was in the book, perhaps even let the Witch King have his moment of gloating then get sworded. As for the orc general chasing after her, that just under cut her killing the King of Angmar. I preferred the book with her passing out from injuries in the battle to being chased by the orc flunky. It's like Superman stopping the missiles and capturing Luthor only to be nearly taken out by Otis.

 

[iguana_tonante]

What? No one cares for Rose Cotton? You buncha Hobbit haters.

Short people got nobody

Oi!

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

One thing I never understood about Tolkien. Why did he name them Saruman and Sauron, why didn't he make these names sound more distinctly different?

 

[Gov Kodos]

What? No one cares for Rose Cotton? You buncha Hobbit haters.

Short people got nobody

Oi!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NvgLkuEtkA

One thing I never understood about Tolkien. Why did he name them Saruman and Sauron, why didn't he make these names sound more distinctly different?

Yeah, that was distracting the first time through.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Short people got nobody

Oi!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NvgLkuEtkA

That's great.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Oi!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NvgLkuEtkA

That's great.

Wasn't sure if anyone would remember that old ditty.

 

[Gaith]

I got the reference; I love that song.

 

[Set Harth]

One thing I never understood about Tolkien. Why did he name them Saruman and Sauron, why didn't he make these names sound more distinctly different?

You think that's bad? What about the elves in The Silmarillion? Fingon? Fingolfin? Finarfin? Finrod Felagund???

The book is better with that, there is no dialogue, just a straight up fight.

All the dialogue in the book's version is before the fight:

"Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"

"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."

"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."

"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"

"But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Eowyn I am, Eomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him."

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Both the book and the movie did this badly. She is a Man in that she is from the race of Men. And all races have male and female.