Why Voyager was a Disappointment

[Anwar]

So the main complaint is that VOY still gets derided?

Yes, and to the extent of "The entire series was a waste.". Even those examples you quoted are seen for some value.

VOY is not different than a bad product experience that left a bad taste in someone's mouth. It isn't hatred that burns forever-that requires an emotional investment. It's just negative, and it comes out on the Internet for years afterwards.

It's still pretty vitriolic.

Change didn't happen because of ratings or "The Audience" (Some please define that term). Change didn't happen because TPTB were committed to the formulaic approach and never committed to any long term change.

I still say that if they'd waited until 2001 or so they'd have other examples of successful "Lost Ship" shows to use as examples of what they wanted to do (Lexx and Farscape).

VOY had a whole back story of Trek to work from to create characters. There really is no excuse to have 1 dimensional characters in a franchise with such rich history.

They were cut off from the pre-established Trekverse and their backstory, that was one of the big problems. They had no connection to anything in the DQ to build up a new story.

OTOH, the producers of Voyager lacked the courage to let the premise of the show evolve. It didn't always have to be the Lost Ship.

Problem was anytime they tried to do anything other than "Lost Ship" they got panned (The Void, Scorpion, etc).

I'll tangent briefly on nuBSG's failings, because I don't think it centered on the Lost Ship plot line, so much as it centered on the darker aspects of humanity, without always the through line of hope. For me, that is very tough to maintain for a series as well.

NuBSG's big fail was that the show ran out of ideas after Season 2 and needed to rely more and more on melodrama and deus ex machina.

That is one aspect that VOY had an advantage over things like Farscape, or Stargate: SG-

Ah yes, another double standard.

SG-1: In "the Lost City" Anubis sends his entire armada to attack Earth, in response the Sg-1 team activate a defense system left on Earth that totally annihilates Anubis' entire force. No one cares.

Voyager: Voyager introduces the 8472 aliens to get the Borg out of the way. Gets panned.

You can't win.

Chakotay pissed me off more than any other character on the show. Janeway completely neutered him. I lost count of how many times I screamed at him on the tv to grow a pair

They realized how sexist and misogynist the premise was and acted to neutralize that. And also Beltran was phoning it in from day one.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

NuBSG's big fail was that the show ran out of ideas after Season 2 and needed to rely more and more on melodrama and deus ex machina.

All that intrigue--the occupation, the resistance, the questions of criminal guilt, cooperation with former enemies, the civil war, the increasing depression--was not BSG? Perhaps I was watching LEXX instead. I often confuse Adama and Stanley Tweedle.

 

[MacLeod]

In the case of SG-1, and the Lost City of the Ancients they had introduced theconcept of the lost city at the end of the previous season and finding the city had been a recurring theme of that season. So that was the pay off, and they had already established previously that the Ancients had been in the Alliance of Four Great races against the Gou'ald since S1

So hypothetically if an idea gets panned, that's an excuse not to do try anything else. In my experiance episodes like "The Void" were well recieved with things along the lines of this is what they should have been doing.

So waiting until 2001 until their were examples the writers could point to and say this is the sort of thing we want to do absolves them of say leading the pack and have other shows follow what they are doing?

Were is this vitroilic hate, I can't say I've seen any of it the numerous threads we have had discussing it. Now that isn't to say some might have experianced it, but in life virtually everything will have some portion of people that really hate it, that does not mean the majority do.

As for nBSG or any other show you care to mention, just because something does/didn't work on that show doesn't mean it won't/will work on a different show.

 

[TheSubCommander]

I'm not saying Voyager was perfect by any means, but for me, it did its job...it gave me a weekly Star Trek fix for 7 seasons, and still does on occasion, when I rewatch it in my collection. My only real complaint was not enough serialization to make the episodes more episodic. Other than that, I think it turned out OK for the most part, aside from some plot lines that seemed a little derivative of the previous incarnations. But it was never bad enough for me to "hate" it.

I will say this, the only Star Trek that ever did let me down as much as some people say Voyager let them down, and was supposed to be full of promise but failed to deliver, and seemed to just recycle idea after idea, with all kinds of plot holes and convenient writing, was Star Trek Into Darkness. Voyager has nothing on that steaming pile of disappointment.

 

[Anwar]

NuBSG's big fail was that the show ran out of ideas after Season 2 and needed to rely more and more on melodrama and deus ex machina.

All that intrigue--the occupation, the resistance, the questions of criminal guilt, cooperation with former enemies, the civil war, the increasing depression--was not BSG? Perhaps I was watching LEXX instead. I often confuse Adama and Stanley Tweedle.

It was a ham-fisted anvilicious knock on "US Occupation Policies" and other topical stuff, and it all ended with a reset button anyways aside from one episode about them killing some nameless faceless extras who didn't matter.

And it was loaded with pointless melodrama.

In the case of SG-1, and the Lost City of the Ancients they had introduced theconcept of the lost city at the end of the previous season and finding the city had been a recurring theme of that season. So that was the pay off, and they had already established previously that the Ancients had been in the Alliance of Four Great races against the Gou'ald since S1

And yet despite TOS and TNG both showing us repeatedly that there were beings out there that the Borg were absolutely powerless against, all VOY got was panning when they did it.

Honestly, Q should've shown up and said "I lied to Picard when I talked about how tough the Borg are. There are hundreds of species who could easily annihilate them and the Delta Quadrant is loaded with them. The Borg are not the problem I made them out to be."

Just so anyone with half a brain cell would get it.

So hypothetically if an idea gets panned, that's an excuse not to do try anything else.

One strike you're out, remember? If they wanted VOY to try new stuff they shouldn't have been so hateful all the time.

So waiting until 2001 until their were examples the writers could point to and say this is the sort of thing we want to do absolves them of say leading the pack and have other shows follow what they are doing

VOY's premise was nothing new, since Blakes Seven had been doing it since the 70s. Hell TOS and TNG already did the same plot more than once.

Waiting til those other shows started would've mollified the Paramount Execs who didn't want them to do anything new in the first place because now they'd have proof it would work.

They weren't going to let them do anything truly experimental at the time.

As for nBSG or any other show you care to mention, just because something does/didn't work on that show doesn't mean it won't/will work on a different show.

When others get away with so much of the same, you have to wonder just what the problem is.

VOY had it's fair share of intrinsic problems, but there were plenty of obstacles in its way other shows didn't have either.

 

[Lance]

Enterprise gets "hate". The JJ Abrams movies get "hate".

In my experience, Voyager only ever gets "polite disagreement".

 

[fireproof78]

So the main complaint is that VOY still gets derided?

Yes, and to the extent of "The entire series was a waste.". Even those examples you quoted are seen for some value.

VOY is not different than a bad product experience that left a bad taste in someone's mouth. It isn't hatred that burns forever-that requires an emotional investment. It's just negative, and it comes out on the Internet for years afterwards.

It's still pretty vitriolic.



I still say that if they'd waited until 2001 or so they'd have other examples of successful "Lost Ship" shows to use as examples of what they wanted to do (Lexx and Farscape).



They were cut off from the pre-established Trekverse and their backstory, that was one of the big problems. They had no connection to anything in the DQ to build up a new story.



Problem was anytime they tried to do anything other than "Lost Ship" they got panned (The Void, Scorpion, etc).



NuBSG's big fail was that the show ran out of ideas after Season 2 and needed to rely more and more on melodrama and deus ex machina.

That is one aspect that VOY had an advantage over things like Farscape, or Stargate: SG-

Ah yes, another double standard.

SG-1: In "the Lost City" Anubis sends his entire armada to attack Earth, in response the Sg-1 team activate a defense system left on Earth that totally annihilates Anubis' entire force. No one cares.

Voyager: Voyager introduces the 8472 aliens to get the Borg out of the way. Gets panned.

You can't win.

Chakotay pissed me off more than any other character on the show. Janeway completely neutered him. I lost count of how many times I screamed at him on the tv to grow a pair

They realized how sexist and misogynist the premise was and acted to neutralize that. And also Beltran was phoning it in from day one.

First of all, the vitriol is limited to a select group, not the entire audience, which is what seems to be meant when the phrase "The Audience" is used. If something different is meant, then it must be defined fur the purpose of discussion. As I have previously reiterated, there is always vitriol, always frustration, always anger, from various parts of fan bases, regardless of the franchise. I'm sure, somewhere, someone is mad at how Halo 4 ended and ruined that franchise and Master Chief-I'm pretty confident on that one, actually.

Secondly, panning keeps getting referred to, but no proof is offered. I find this argument difficult to understand if no evidence is offered.

VOY was not cut off from the previous backstory for creating characters. So, the argument that they could not use that back story is flat out wrong, because the Maquis were established in TNG and fleshed out in DS9 so that they would be familiar concepts in the overall Trek universe. Also, if they could borrow nothing from the Trek history, then the Borg or Q should have been nowhere near Voyager. So, no, they were not cut off from everything, sorry.

As for the supposed double standard, Stargate, as Macleod, talked about, the Ancients were a previously established race (back in Season 1), and various Ancient technology had been discovered around the galaxy. It was not a deus ex machina or unexpected, but the build up of an entire season. Stargate had a previously established universe to work with. VOY seems to be unwilling to build a universe that the Voyager existed in or was discovering. Nothing mattered in the long run.

The problem with VOY is that it promised a whole lot and fulfilled very little. As I said, a negative experience, even in entertainment (I would argue especially with entertainment) stays with people longer.

VOY did not have a one strike and your out policy, otherwise we would not see the Borg again and again. It was creative choices, their creative box, that limited the show.

VOY didn't do Lost Ship with any sort of consistency, despite promising otherwise-it did TNG in the DQ, save for a few episodes.

Other shows get away with some things because they have earned good will by building a good shows, establishing compelling characters and a hook to engage the audience. For instance, Stargate began with a new threat, an engaging mystery and characters who had conflicting interests or backgrounds (O'Neill/Jackson-soldier vs. scientist. Teal'c: is he trustworthy or a traitor? The list goes on). When things changed there was a previously established framework, written or unwritten, for the writers to work with for the characters. The characters in VOY lacked such a consistent foundation beyond basic sketches. So, there not the same well to draw from when getting later in to the series.

All of which does not point to any part of the audience being at fault. There just seems to be disappointment at unfulfilled promises and unrealized potential.

 

[Anwar]

VOY was not cut off from the previous backstory for creating characters. So, the argument that they could not use that back story is flat out wrong, because the Maquis were established in TNG and fleshed out in DS9 so that they would be familiar concepts in the overall Trek universe.

That's one of my big problems with the show, one of the conceptual problems I talk about: The Maquis weren't defined well enough to work as the other crew in VOY especially considering their one point of contention was now 75 years away. They just weren't different enough to work.

Now having the other crew be Romulans, there's something to it.

Also, if they could borrow nothing from the Trek history, then the Borg or Q should have been nowhere near Voyager. So, no, they were not cut off from everything, sorry.

Why do you think the audience was so PO'ed they showed up at all in VOY?

As for the supposed double standard, Stargate, as Macleod, talked about, the Ancients were a previously established race (back in Season 1), and various Ancient technology had been discovered around the galaxy. It was not a deus ex machina or unexpected, but the build up of an entire season. Stargate had a previously established universe to work with.

And like I said, it was already well-established that there were many species out there that could wipe the floor with the Borg.

VOY seems to be unwilling to build a universe that the Voyager existed in or was discovering. Nothing mattered in the long run.

If they can't stay for more than a few episodes, there's no pointing in melting your brain in fleshing out the area. If they plot was that they were trapped in one area and couldn't leave, that's more incentive to make something of the setting.

SG-1 had a permanent location in Earth, Farscape was always flying around in circles in the Uncharted Territories, NuBSG had the armada as it's setting since the various ships acted as cities/worlds to visit/revisit, DS9 had the Alpha Quadrant and was stationary.

VOY had nothing permanent.

The problem with VOY is that it promised a whole lot and fulfilled very little.

The audience simply expected too much. It's like getting mad at a penguin for not flying away.

VOY did not have a one strike and your out policy, otherwise we would not see the Borg again and again.

It perfectly explains why the Borg stories got panned from start to finish.

Other shows get away with some things because they have earned good will by building a good shows, establishing compelling characters and a hook to engage the audience.

Kind of hard to do that when no one was willing to give VOY good will. Ever.

 

[fireproof78]

VOY was not cut off from the previous backstory for creating characters. So, the argument that they could not use that back story is flat out wrong, because the Maquis were established in TNG and fleshed out in DS9 so that they would be familiar concepts in the overall Trek universe.

That's one of my big problems with the show, one of the conceptual problems I talk about: The Maquis weren't defined well enough to work as the other crew in VOY especially considering their one point of contention was now 75 years away. They just weren't different enough to work.

Now having the other crew be Romulans, there's something to it.

Also, if they could borrow nothing from the Trek history, then the Borg or Q should have been nowhere near Voyager. So, no, they were not cut off from everything, sorry.

Why do you think the audience was so PO'ed they showed up at all in VOY?

And like I said, it was already well-established that there were many species out there that could wipe the floor with the Borg.

If they can't stay for more than a few episodes, there's no pointing in melting your brain in fleshing out the area. If they plot was that they were trapped in one area and couldn't leave, that's more incentive to make something of the setting.

SG-1 had a permanent location in Earth, Farscape was always flying around in circles in the Uncharted Territories, NuBSG had the armada as it's setting since the various ships acted as cities/worlds to visit/revisit, DS9 had the Alpha Quadrant and was stationary.

VOY had nothing permanent.

The audience simply expected too much. It's like getting mad at a penguin for not flying away.

VOY did not have a one strike and your out policy, otherwise we would not see the Borg again and again.

It perfectly explains why the Borg stories got panned from start to finish.

Other shows get away with some things because they have earned good will by building a good shows, establishing compelling characters and a hook to engage the audience.

Kind of hard to do that when no one was willing to give VOY good will. Ever.

The fact that we are still talking about VOY, that people are saying positive things about it, the fact that I see many positive reviews from people who can be very harsh and critical of anything Trek that steps outside their parameters of good Trek. So, no, I'm not buying that no one ever gave VOY good will at all.

VOY had Voyager. The ship becomes the mainstay, the common place, the audience's reference point, especially when you put history, and stories, character in to the ship. If you can't stay in one place, then make the ship the place that develops and make the characters people who are changing as their journey continues. Those are the hooks you use to capture an audience.

I don't believe for a moment the audience was PO'ed at the Borg showing up, as all the reviews I can find demonstrate that they were annoyed at Unity because the Borg were not shown in their full power. And yes, I can see the counterargument that people were annoyed when Species 8472 so easily beat them down. Yes, I've heard that numerous times. But, I've not seen the same type of backlash that keeps being said existed, or at least to such an extreme degree or as widespread. Scorpion has been held up as VOY's best.

By the way, the audience expected what was promised them. Something different. Not their fault that it could not be followed through on.

 

[Anwar]

The fact that we are still talking about VOY, that people are saying positive things about it, the fact that I see many positive reviews from people who can be very harsh and critical of anything Trek that steps outside their parameters of good Trek. So, no, I'm not buying that no one ever gave VOY good will at all.

So a few people may have mellowed out over the years and possibly changed their minds. Too little too late.

VOY had Voyager. The ship becomes the mainstay, the common place, the audience's reference point, especially when you put history, and stories, character in to the ship. If you can't stay in one place, then make the ship the place that develops and make the characters people who are changing as their journey continues. Those are the hooks you use to capture an audience.

Not good enough. You need external stuff and a setting.

You know that Roddenberry was original going to do the Lost Ship thing for TOS? He changed his mind when he realized how much better things would be if there were external hooks.

I don't believe for a moment the audience was PO'ed at the Borg showing up, as all the reviews I can find demonstrate that they were annoyed at Unity because the Borg were not shown in their full power.

They were PO'ed at the idea of a colony of breakaway Borg. Despite TNG doing the same thing.

And yes, I can see the counterargument that people were annoyed when Species 8472 so easily beat them down. Yes, I've heard that numerous times.

Which is silly, given how we'd repeatedly been shown species the Borg are utterly powerless again.

Honestly, if we saw Q destroy a Borg armada you think anyone would care?

By the way, the audience expected what was promised them. Something different. Not their fault that it could not be followed through on.

And a lot of the trailers didn't even bother mentioning the DQ twist, what was promised them was the adventures of a new ship. Nothing more.

 

[fireproof78]

The fact that we are still talking about VOY, that people are saying positive things about it, the fact that I see many positive reviews from people who can be very harsh and critical of anything Trek that steps outside their parameters of good Trek. So, no, I'm not buying that no one ever gave VOY good will at all.

So a few people may have mellowed out over the years and possibly changed their minds. Too little too late.

VOY had Voyager. The ship becomes the mainstay, the common place, the audience's reference point, especially when you put history, and stories, character in to the ship. If you can't stay in one place, then make the ship the place that develops and make the characters people who are changing as their journey continues. Those are the hooks you use to capture an audience.

Not good enough. You need external stuff and a setting.

You know that Roddenberry was original going to do the Lost Ship thing for TOS? He changed his mind when he realized how much better things would be if there were external hooks.



They were PO'ed at the idea of a colony of breakaway Borg. Despite TNG doing the same thing.

And yes, I can see the counterargument that people were annoyed when Species 8472 so easily beat them down. Yes, I've heard that numerous times.

Which is silly, given how we'd repeatedly been shown species the Borg are utterly powerless again.

Honestly, if we saw Q destroy a Borg armada you think anyone would care?

By the way, the audience expected what was promised them. Something different. Not their fault that it could not be followed through on.

And a lot of the trailers didn't even bother mentioning the DQ twist, what was promised them was the adventures of a new ship. Nothing more.

I'm still trying to figure out who was hating to begin with Nothing points towards the mass level rage against VOY that is being claimed.

Roddenberry didn't have all the tools, or support, to carry out all of his ideas and ambitions. He did not always succeed at that, nor was there ever a consistent setting for TOS, other than the Enterprise and the people who served on her. Again, it was the characters who were the driving force, not the fact that they were in the Alpha Quadrant-that didn't even exist in the continuity!

VOY's creative staff set out to do something different. That was their stated purpose. Even if the DQ wasn't promised, they still planned on going there, according to BTS info. Then they tried to hook the audience with the ship being stranded in the pilot, but went right to TNG style stories in the next four stories. That isn't different. Different was not done with VOY. It was formulaic and beholden to the TNG way.

Also, I seem to recall that Descent was not highly regarded for the colony of breakaway Borg, mostly because the Borg were not actually the villain-Lore was. So, it was kind of a bait and switch and not a well received episode.

As for the Borg, what species have we been shown that the Borg were powerless against? Q is something entirely different, and we see him send the Borg away so casually but that is nothing new with him. Species 8472 presented a real threat, and one that could have carried forward in to a real menace. Instead, they were a one shot villain, and left behind.

Also, the Borg became incredibly overused in VOY, despite the audience's supposed hatred, so it is not hard to imagine growing tired of the same old villain being defeated again and again by a supposedly unsupported ship. That's the frustrating part is that the Borg got beat in to the ground time and again that I can no longer take them seriously. That's kind of disappointing.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Omg this is the thread all about eating your young.

 

[MacLeod]

If you are sold Product A and actually get Product B, it doesn't matter how good Product B is, you'll still be disappointed that you didn't get what you were sold i.e. Product A

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I was sold Star Trek and I got Star Trek.

 

[MacLeod]

There are six varities of Star Trek available, with ....

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Cream, sugar, borg sides and gazelles.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Cream, sugar, borg sides and gazelles.

And Pine scented!

 

[Bad Thoughts]

There are six varities of Star Trek available, with ....

Creole Trek isn't just an additive!

 

[Anwar]

Roddenberry didn't have all the tools, or support, to carry out all of his ideas and ambitions. He did not always succeed at that, nor was there ever a consistent setting for TOS, other than the Enterprise and the people who served on her. Again, it was the characters who were the driving force, not the fact that they were in the Alpha Quadrant-that didn't even exist in the continuity!

TOS only had 3 Central characters, and they had connection to their surroundings through them (Kirk's old flames, McCoy's old friends, Spock to the Vulcans and Romulans, etc). Connections the VOY crew couldn't have with the DQ.

Plus no one cared when TOS did anything big or cool or important, whereas if VOY ever tried to do anything important they get criticized for being "too important".

VOY's creative staff set out to do something different.

And with more time to iron out the kinks in the concept, they'd have realized they needed more to actually do anything different.

Also, I seem to recall that Descent was not highly regarded for the colony of breakaway Borg, mostly because the Borg were not actually the villain-Lore was. So, it was kind of a bait and switch and not a well received episode.

Still better received than all of VOY's Borg stories combined.

Seriously, if VOY had been the one to do the "Use a solar flare to destroy a Borg Cube" thing the audience would just complain that a solar flare shouldn't have been strong enough to even damage a Borg Cube.

As for the Borg, what species have we been shown that the Borg were powerless against?

The Organians, Nagilum, Kevin Uxbridge, the Metrons, the Doomsday Machine, Trelane's people, the Hellenic Gods, "God" from Star Trek V, etc.

Species 8472 presented a real threat, and one that could have carried forward in to a real menace. Instead, they were a one shot villain, and left behind.

If the audience hadn't hated them from Day One, maybe.

That's the frustrating part is that the Borg got beat in to the ground time and again that I can no longer take them seriously. That's kind of disappointing.

DS9 used the Dominion much more often. Only difference was that they had cannon fodder they could sacrifice to the Dominion to make them intimidating and could afford to lose battles without harming DS9, or the Defiant, or lose any crew.

 

[MacLeod]

^I must have missed the episdoe where they destroyed the Defiant along with an fleet.

Didn't they start deveolping VOY around S6 of TNG? If so they had almost two years to develop it, how long did they need?

Where is the evidenc ethey hated Species 8472 from day one?

Ah so the Borg are powerless against species which for the most part are beings of energy or at least highly technologically advanced, i.e Organians

As for species 8472, what did they want to do destroy everything that wasn't them, were have I seen that before ah yes the Dalek's from DW, just as the Borg are ST version of Cybermen, convert or be destroyed.

And I doubt that "Descent" was better received than all of VOY Borg stories. And to be fair that is when the Borg started to become de-fanged.

And really what TV audiances accepted in the 1960's might not be the same as to what they accept in the 1990's.


News of VOY arrival and there quest to get home could easily have preceded them as subspace communications are faster than Warp Drive. So you could have groups seeking out VOY to aid or hinder There is plenty that can be done with the concept should the will be there. No the edict might have come down from the execs to be as episodic as possible but that has nothing to do with what the aduainces wants/doesn't want.