Why Voyager was a Disappointment

[Anwar]

^I must have missed the episdoe where they destroyed the Defiant along with an fleet.

Once and only once in the entire series is the Defiant that badly damaged. And it's all moot since they got a perfect replacement.

Didn't they start deveolping VOY around S6 of TNG? If so they had almost two years to develop it, how long did they need?

No, they started around the end of S7. Which means the show got like 1/4 the development time DS9 did.

Where is the evidenc ethey hated Species 8472 from day one?

Scorpion Part II not being as like as Part I, and how it's all seen as the start of the Borg's ruination.

Ah so the Borg are powerless against species which for the most part are beings of energy or at least highly technologically advanced, i.e Organians

And no one cared. Yet when VOY does the same thing everyone complains.

As for species 8472, what did they want to do destroy everything that wasn't them, were have I seen that before ah yes the Dalek's from DW, just as the Borg are ST version of Cybermen, convert or be destroyed.

No one cared when Doctor Who did it, but if VOY does it suddenly it's bad.

And I doubt that "Descent" was better received than all of VOY Borg stories.

Like I said, if VOY had done the solar flare trick instead of the ENT-D you think anyone would enjoy that?

News of VOY arrival and there quest to get home could easily have preceded them as subspace communications are faster than Warp Drive. So you could have groups seeking out VOY to aid or hinder There is plenty that can be done with the concept should the will be there.

And yet when contact was re-established, it was just seen as another thing the show did wrong!

 

[fireproof78]

^I must have missed the episdoe where they destroyed the Defiant along with an fleet.

Once and only once in the entire series is the Defiant that badly damaged. And it's all moot since they got a perfect replacement.

Didn't they start deveolping VOY around S6 of TNG? If so they had almost two years to develop it, how long did they need?

No, they started around the end of S7. Which means the show got like 1/4 the development time DS9 did.



Scorpion Part II not being as like as Part I, and how it's all seen as the start of the Borg's ruination.



And no one cared. Yet when VOY does the same thing everyone complains.



No one cared when Doctor Who did it, but if VOY does it suddenly it's bad.

And I doubt that "Descent" was better received than all of VOY Borg stories.

Like I said, if VOY had done the solar flare trick instead of the ENT-D you think anyone would enjoy that?

News of VOY arrival and there quest to get home could easily have preceded them as subspace communications are faster than Warp Drive. So you could have groups seeking out VOY to aid or hinder There is plenty that can be done with the concept should the will be there.

And yet when contact was re-established, it was just seen as another thing the show did wrong!

Yes, yes I do think people would have enjoyed it. Not only do I think that, but I read opinions of others who also think that. Not only that, but Descent was where the Borg started to get defanged, and then Unity happened and that was a disappointment, given the build up, and even the production staff admitted it! So, Scorpion was a better story, more interesting, and more personal, given the divide between Janeway and Chakotay. The disappointment came from the fact that they did not follow through on killing someone, as was indicated in Part 1, and a bit of a technobable solution to stopping 8472 and then stopping 7 of 9. Beyond that, nothing else had indicated that the episode was poorly received.

To be perfectly blunt, VOY had not earned the goodwill or confidence that TNG had or Doctor Who had through their longevity. Despite your insistence, DW has a much different flavor, much different tone and different base that VOY does, and is not really a good comparison for why people would like or dislike something.

As for TOS, TOS was something different for the time period, and was received differently by the audience of that time. If you take an episode of TOS and an episode of VOY and just mash them together for comparison, it's not going to be equal, given the different time period, cultural context, etc. that each show had. In all honesty, it's unfair to both shows.

As for aliens more powerful than the Borg, none of those aliens ever faced the Borg or were demonstrated to go head to head against the Borg. So, no, the audience had not seen aliens that had defeated the Borg in open combat. The idea of all-powerful beings is interesting but won't be on my mind when a new alien in introduced.

I honestly don't think that more time would have helped VOY, because the flaws were more a part of the character development, and strength of the show at the time. As I said, VOY did not have consistency that would be expected from a show that had been going on for 3, going on 4 years, but was not quite there.

As Macleod pointed out, what audiences expect is not impacted by what studio execs order. VOY would not get a pass simply because of that. The lack of consistency and character growth does not inspire confidence, especially in a franchise that has been expected to produce good results.

Despite the arguments, I still find it lacking that the entire audience hated VOY simply because it tried something different. It just was a lack of follow through on the concept originally presented.

 

[MacLeod]

Scorpion Part II not being as like as Part I, and how it's all seen as the start of the Borg's ruination.

Shall we do the list of ST two part episodes, where Part II is weaker than Part I. esp. with season closing/opening ones. (Opinions might vary)

"Best of Both Worlds, Part II"
"Time's Arrow, Part II"
"Descent, Part II"

 

[Bad Thoughts]

That's the frustrating part is that the Borg got beat in to the ground time and again that I can no longer take them seriously. That's kind of disappointing.

DS9 used the Dominion much more often. Only difference was that they had cannon fodder they could sacrifice to the Dominion to make them intimidating and could afford to lose battles without harming DS9, or the Defiant, or lose any crew.

Ultimately, those were battles that had to be fought at the cost of lives (albeit many of them off screen). There were no clever solutions, no technobabble solutions, no magic bullets that could win the war. There had to be a negotiate settlement, and at the end, few people celebrated. There was at least one main character who was a victim of the war, and all were affected by the process.

 

[Anwar]

Yes, yes I do think people would have enjoyed it. Not only do I think that, but I read opinions of others who also think that.

If VOY had done that, then the complaint would be that the Sun shouldn't be strong enough to destroy a Borg ship.

Stupid, but that would be it.

So, Scorpion was a better story, more interesting, and more personal, given the divide between Janeway and Chakotay. The disappointment came from the fact that they did not follow through on killing someone, as was indicated in Part 1, and a bit of a technobable solution to stopping 8472 and then stopping 7 of 9. Beyond that, nothing else had indicated that the episode was poorly received.

It wasn't technobabble anymore than the solution in BOBW was, it was using the prior story (Unity) and stuff established in prior series (TNG's I, Borg). You say they wanted callbacks and consequences? Well there they are. And still there's no appreciation.

To be perfectly blunt, VOY had not earned the goodwill or confidence that TNG had or Doctor Who had through their longevity.

The show never had any goodwill, right from Day One. Can't earn something denied to you at birth.

As for aliens more powerful than the Borg, none of those aliens ever faced the Borg or were demonstrated to go head to head against the Borg. So, no, the audience had not seen aliens that had defeated the Borg in open combat.

The power we'd seen them show was vastly more than anything the Borg ever showed.

In fact, it made little sense for the TNG crew to be so in awe of the Borg in the first place considering they'd already encountered beings vastly beyond them by then.

I guess they really did need Q to destroy a Borg armada, just to make it so clear anyone would get it.

I honestly don't think that more time would have helped VOY, because the flaws were more a part of the character development, and strength of the show at the time.

Waiting til after DS9 was done would've at least given them the option to bring them home after 2 seasons and do a new AQ plotline.

The lack of consistency and character growth does not inspire confidence, especially in a franchise that has been expected to produce good results.

I still think hiring new writers with new ideas and having a smaller cast would've helped. But that's just me.

It just was a lack of follow through on the concept originally presented.

Just my opinion, but that concept wasn't sustainable. It's a mini-series plot.

Ultimately, those were battles that had to be fought at the cost of lives (albeit many of them off screen).

Exactly, off-screen. And with lots of nameless faceless cannon fodder they could pull out of nowhere.

There were no clever solutions, no technobabble solutions, no magic bullets that could win the war.

Prophet ex machina in "Sacrifice of Angels" and the Changling Plague disagree.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

There were no clever solutions, no technobabble solutions, no magic bullets that could win the war.

Prophet ex machina in "Sacrifice of Angels" and the Changling Plague disagree.

What You Leave Behind trumps. Thanks for playing. No consolation prizes.

 

[Anwar]

Not really, with the Prophets divine intervention things never would have made it to that stage.

 

[fireproof78]

Yes, yes I do think people would have enjoyed it. Not only do I think that, but I read opinions of others who also think that.

If VOY had done that, then the complaint would be that the Sun shouldn't be strong enough to destroy a Borg ship.

Stupid, but that would be it.

So, Scorpion was a better story, more interesting, and more personal, given the divide between Janeway and Chakotay. The disappointment came from the fact that they did not follow through on killing someone, as was indicated in Part 1, and a bit of a technobable solution to stopping 8472 and then stopping 7 of 9. Beyond that, nothing else had indicated that the episode was poorly received.

It wasn't technobabble anymore than the solution in BOBW was, it was using the prior story (Unity) and stuff established in prior series (TNG's I, Borg). You say they wanted callbacks and consequences? Well there they are. And still there's no appreciation.



The show never had any goodwill, right from Day One. Can't earn something denied to you at birth.



The power we'd seen them show was vastly more than anything the Borg ever showed.

In fact, it made little sense for the TNG crew to be so in awe of the Borg in the first place considering they'd already encountered beings vastly beyond them by then.

I guess they really did need Q to destroy a Borg armada, just to make it so clear anyone would get it.



Waiting til after DS9 was done would've at least given them the option to bring them home after 2 seasons and do a new AQ plotline.



I still think hiring new writers with new ideas and having a smaller cast would've helped. But that's just me.



Just my opinion, but that concept wasn't sustainable. It's a mini-series plot.

The opinion about the Lost Ship is well established. The point is not to express frustration at the limits. The point of any creative endeavor is to surmount obstacles, not point to them and say, "Well, we can't really succeed because of these."

Well, I appreciate the callback of Chakotay connecting with the Borg collective, as it is an interesting way to do it. But, 8472 was more my complaint, as it is a rather lackluster resolution. And that's just me. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate the episode or what was done.

Quite honestly, VOY had chances to succeed, despite all the claims to the contrary. VOY had plenty of build up, promotional opportunities, and resources that I noticed at 10 years old, and that takes some doing to make that happen. It had good will from me, my friends, family and every other Trek fan I knew, and ones that I met later who thought VOY was their favorite series. VOY's numbers even tracked with DS9's for a while, so clearly it wasn't all hostile. I don't tune in to a TV show to hate on it, nor do most viewers.

All indications point towards lackluster performance on the part of VOY, poor development of characters, and missed opportunities to provide a unique spin on a concept. It doesn't matter if Trek has done it before, because, the reality is, all literature and art has been done before, to one degree or another. It's all matter of your new take on the concept, which VOY had the elements to create something new. They succeeded in some places (The Doctor, Seven, I think Seska was a pretty interesting character, the Hirogen, Species 8472, among others) but missed several others (much longer list).

The Borg were a decidedly mixed bag, because of how they were presented in TNG. They made only a handful of appearances, and were treated with the appropriate seriousness of the threat they posed, with the exception of Descent, which got sillier towards the end (another part 2 that was poorer performing than part 1 ). The whole Sun thing was consider silly even for TNG, so I don't think if VOY had done it would have been treated any differently or worse.

Still waiting for demonstration of the wholesale audience panning, but I can wait.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Not really, with the Prophets divine intervention things never would have made it to that stage.

To what stage? Literally the stage it reached at the end of the series? If the Prophets were to intervene at every point, they must have falled asleep after SOA.

 

[Anwar]

The opinion about the Lost Ship is well established. The point is not to express frustration at the limits. The point of any creative endeavor is to surmount obstacles, not point to them and say, "Well, we can't really succeed because of these."

The fact that no other "Lost Ship" show ever made it past 4 seasons says otherwise. If DS9 hadn't been there to keep them away from the Alpha Quadrant they'd have had their main resource to draw inspiration from.

Well, I appreciate the callback of Chakotay connecting with the Borg collective, as it is an interesting way to do it. But, 8472 was more my complaint, as it is a rather lackluster resolution. And that's just me. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate the episode or what was done.

No more than "Sleep" was for TNG or "Stop those ships! was for DS9 or the Organians were for TOS.

It had good will from me, my friends, family and every other Trek fan I knew, and ones that I met later who thought VOY was their favorite series.

Then the rest of the audience should've been more like you.

All indications point towards lackluster performance on the part of VOY, poor development of characters, and missed opportunities to provide a unique spin on a concept.

Lots of external problems too, that made things harder in a lot of ways.

The Borg were a decidedly mixed bag, because of how they were presented in TNG. They made only a handful of appearances,

The Borg really only made one real appearance in TNG and were beaten only once. That was the problem VOY had since they didn't have that luxury.

The whole Sun thing was consider silly even for TNG, so I don't think if VOY had done it would have been treated any differently or worse.

You'd be surprised.

To what stage? Literally the stage it reached at the end of the series?

Yes, if they hadn't destroyed the majority of the Dominion's forces then the war would've ended then and there. What they did made the Dominion and the Fed Alliance more equal and ultimately led to the negotiating table.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

To what stage? Literally the stage it reached at the end of the series?

Yes, if they hadn't destroyed the majority of the Dominion's forces then the war would've ended then and there. What they did made the Dominion and the Fed Alliance more equal and ultimately led to the negotiating table.

If only Sisko had found the Jem'hadar's sleep command, it would have all made more sense.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Anyone beginning to feel the germ of a new drinking game here yet?

 

[eyeresist]

Well, this thread is giving me the urge to drink...

 

[fireproof78]

The opinion about the Lost Ship is well established. The point is not to express frustration at the limits. The point of any creative endeavor is to surmount obstacles, not point to them and say, "Well, we can't really succeed because of these."

The fact that no other "Lost Ship" show ever made it past 4 seasons says otherwise. If DS9 hadn't been there to keep them away from the Alpha Quadrant they'd have had their main resource to draw inspiration from.

Well, I appreciate the callback of Chakotay connecting with the Borg collective, as it is an interesting way to do it. But, 8472 was more my complaint, as it is a rather lackluster resolution. And that's just me. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate the episode or what was done.

No more than "Sleep" was for TNG or "Stop those ships! was for DS9 or the Organians were for TOS.



Then the rest of the audience should've been more like you.



Lots of external problems too, that made things harder in a lot of ways.



The Borg really only made one real appearance in TNG and were beaten only once. That was the problem VOY had since they didn't have that luxury.

The whole Sun thing was consider silly even for TNG, so I don't think if VOY had done it would have been treated any differently or worse.

You'd be surprised.

No, I really wouldn't be surprised. TNG did a lot of silly things that were not regarded well, especially in the early seasons (Naked Now, anyone?) As for Scorpion's resolution, it worked and I'll not compare it against TNG or TOS. That is neither fair nor a proper comparison. Scorpion, in my opinion is a satisfying episode, and widely regarded as VOY's best.

I have been looking for as much info as I can reasonably be certain is accurate for the time and reviews and ratings for VOY, as well as current opinions on episodes. First of all, my general read of this reaction is one that was disinterested, disappointed and moving on to other competition that was available. It isn't one of "hatred" or "panning" but selecting to choose a different product due to lack of performance. It certainly isn't due to any vitriol or predisposed bias against the show.

In case I haven't been clear, the external difficulties of VOY were no different than others shows had experienced, and overcome. All the difficulties mentioned thus far are ones that previous series have encountered.

The network was changing its mind? Networks are always changing their minds, which is why TOS was in constant threat of cancellation.

Writers are having struggles? TNG had a writers' strike, as did Abrams first Trek film.

Simply put, it comes down to leadership, and the leadership chose to play it safe, stick with the TNG formula, despite promises to the contrary, and take its fan base for granted. Viewers who are constantly being told one thing and given another are not going to want to come back. Again, not hatred but disappointment.

As for the Borg, TNG weakened them with Descent, and VOY made them seemingly powerless against a stranded ship. Regardless of how overpowered the Borg are or are not, VOY should not be able to defeat them time, and time again. Unless it is all part of a Borg conspiracy to get Seven of Nine back to Earth, creating the perfect sleeper agent.

 

[MacLeod]

^Which comes back to what Ron Moore said in his interview, which is basically at some point (which will vary from person to person) the audiance no longer buys it, or to put it another way the suspension of disbelief is broken. Just how often can they defeat the Borg, how many shuttles do they have, why does the ship look like it had just left the construction yards virtually every week. Where are all these torpedeos coming from when they stated they can't make any more etc... It's a cumulative effect. VOY could have been so much more as it stands it had it's moments with episodes that are amongest ST best but for the most of the run it was just average Trek. I don't think it scaled the heights that TNG and DSN managed to acheive during their run, that isn't to say that those shows didn't have their lows.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

^Which comes back to what Ron Moore said in his interview, which is basically at some point (which will vary from person to person) the audiance no longer buys it, or to put it another way the suspension of disbelief is broken. Just how often can they defeat the Borg, how many shuttles do they have, why does the ship look like it had just left the construction yards virtually every week. Where are all these torpedeos coming from when they stated they can't make any more etc... It's a cumulative effect. VOY could have been so much more as it stands it had it's moments with episodes that are amongest ST best but for the most of the run it was just average Trek. I don't think it scaled the heights that TNG and DSN managed to acheive during their run, that isn't to say that those shows didn't have their lows.

I feel that an asterisk should be placed next to Ron Moore's analysis of Voyager. No doubt he has contributed to a diagnosis of the show, and of Trek in general, but he is hardly neutral. First, his own time with the show was personally disappointing. Second, and most importantly, he is himself trying to sell shows and has expressed his opinion about Trek's future often (he may have even pitched for a new Trek series, IDK). To that end, his analysis is too detailed and too in-universe. The Borg may well have been used too many times, but he says that fans were turned off because the Borg threat was undercut by the easy victories Voyager had over them. Maybe, but that probably would reflect the opinions of fandom more than that of the general audience. Conversely, too many Borg episodes may have made the series feel too samey: there weere Borg episodes, there were Seven as Borg episodes, and there were Doctor episodes (more technology becoming individual), and everything starts to look alike according to the casual viewer. Moore's critique seems to suggest a specific solution: increasing the dramatic risk and focusing on developing the aura of the Borg threat, things he would try in his future series. Indeed, his diagnosis of Voyager looks a little like the pitch for his next project. Now, he may be completely correct. However, his analysis should be used cautiously.

 

[Anwar]

Moore's own attempt at a "Voyager" type show fell apart after only two seasons. He has little room to critique since his own ideas weren't sustainable either.

And his Cylons weren't as stupidly overpowered as the TNG Borg were. And his show had disposable cannon fodder to sacrifice to the Cylons, cannon fodder VOY didn't have.

 

[fireproof78]

I feel that an asterisk should be placed next to Ron Moore's analysis of Voyager. No doubt he has contributed to a diagnosis of the show, and of Trek in general, but he is hardly neutral. First, his own time with the show was personally disappointing. Second, and most importantly, he is himself trying to sell shows and has expressed his opinion about Trek's future often (he may have even pitched for a new Trek series, IDK). To that end, his analysis is too detailed and too in-universe. The Borg may well have been used too many times, but he says that fans were turned off because the Borg threat was undercut by the easy victories Voyager had over them. Maybe, but that probably would reflect the opinions of fandom more than that of the general audience. Conversely, too many Borg episodes may have made the series feel too samey: there weere Borg episodes, there were Seven as Borg episodes, and there were Doctor episodes (more technology becoming individual), and everything starts to look alike according to the casual viewer. Moore's critique seems to suggest a specific solution: increasing the dramatic risk and focusing on developing the aura of the Borg threat, things he would try in his future series. Indeed, his diagnosis of Voyager looks a little like the pitch for his next project. Now, he may be completely correct. However, his analysis should be used cautiously.

I agree that Moore should be referenced with caution, but I also appreciate his point of view. No doubt that he is biased, but he at least is more honest in his opinion about Trek's successes and failings.

I think VOY had its ups and downs, like many other TV shows. The difference for VOY, for me, is the fact that there was not the characters that kept me interested in the show. Whatever was going in the writer's room clearly impacted the how in a negative way, but that doesn't make me like the show. Heck, if behind the scenes failings made for better entertainment then Star Trek V should be at the top of people's lists

Moore's own attempt at a "Voyager" type show fell apart after only two seasons. He has little room to critique since his own ideas weren't sustainable either.

And his Cylons weren't as stupidly overpowered as the TNG Borg were. And his show had disposable cannon fodder to sacrifice to the Cylons, cannon fodder VOY didn't have.

Moore is entitled to his opinion. Not sure why he gets to be the punching bag over critiquing VOY.

Also, since Moore did not have a hand in creating or writing VOY he can hardly be held accountable for the show's failings.

I wonder at how reasonable it is to compare VOY and nuBSG, beyond the Lost Ship outline. VOY didn't adhere to it and nuBSG was more of a soap opera in space. I think any real comparison is surface level, at best.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Starships are really easy to fix and clean.

(seriously I think they use the transporters to both vacuum and paint the ship.)

Look at Equinox, it just took 16 hours to take that little turd from a ramshackle splutter leaking spare parts to "like it had just left the construction yards".

 

[fireproof78]

Starships are really easy to fix and clean.

(seriously I think they use the transporters to both vacuum and paint the ship.)

Look at Equinox, it just took 16 hours to take that little turd from a ramshackle splutter leaking spare parts to "like it had just left the construction yards".

Leaving behind only the fresh scent of pine