Why Voyager was a Disappointment

[fireproof78]

If Voyager is 0 and Stargate Universe is 100, people wanted more around 30. Starfleet and the Maquis working past their differences while still acknowledging they exist.

And if they did that, then the audience would just say "It should've lasted the entire series!" no matter how crazy that sounds.

They'd be better off systematically killing all the Maquis until there's only a dozen left who quietly fade into the background.

Also, other than a small hint in Good Shepherd we never saw any stories of the stress caused by people who thought they signed on for something temporary and now signed on for a life sentence. Voyager did not respect the premise.

That's like saying Kirk's Enterprise and Picard's Enterprise should've collapsed under stress when the same thing happened to them. Or in DS9 have the station crew mutiny and try to join the Dominion to escape the war.

@Anwar

Do you have any Voyager defenses in your arsenal besides straw man attacks arguing against the extreme and repeated insistence that being on a network somehow demands lame disposable writing?

You are not arguing that Voyager is a good show, you are arguing that it is justified in being mediocre.

I'm arguing that it did the best it could given its circumstances and a plot that's only good for 2 seasons.

And an audience that hated nearly anything different the show tried to do.

But, the audience that supposedly "hated it" keeps coming out and saying that they liked it, or liked aspects of it. Again, despite protests to the contrary, VOY had positive reviews for many episodes, despite the audience fatigue, which has been established.

As for the Maquis, the conflict did eventually fade out, and there was no distinction after a couple of episodes, rather than even a season. So, it is a legitimate complaint, not a whine, because it didn't last very long at all.

As for collapsing under the stress, isn't the point that they lack the resources to restore their ship. Well, as other shows have done (successfully) crews under constant watch and stress will start fatiguing, to the point that a small stress may break them. We saw it in DS9 (Siege of AR-558), and even in "Day of the Dove" were the crew is under stress and has to fight their way through it. Well, that is all trained Starfleet personnel. The average individual is not going to put up with the same stress day-in and day-out without cracking. That's just psychology. Heck, M*A*S*H did it and that was a comedy that was as episodic as you could get.

The problem with most of the arguments for VOY is that basically the audience has to accept poor quality for reasons they could not know. That is neither fair nor reasonable expectation. Working in customer service, I get this a lot. People don't want a reason that product is bad-they want it to be fixed. Given the heights at which TNG and DS9 and even the films (at the time) had gone, mediocre doesn't feel right for a Trek series. Mediocre episodes, sure. But consistent hum-drum shows is not what is expected of Star Trek. Again, look at all the flak Abrams gets for his films being "mindless action films."

Also, it does nothing to support the position of VOY to call anyone a "whiny bitch" because that is attacking a person, not a position, based upon opinion not demonstrable fact. So, if you disagree with someone that's one thing. Attacking them personally does nothing to substantiate your position.

 

[Anwar]

Again, despite protests to the contrary, VOY had positive reviews for many episodes, despite the audience fatigue, which has been established.

Well, maybe now. Especially since most major Anti-Voyager shows crashed and burned (NuBSG and SGU) they're re-evaluating and realize what they thought would be a good plot really isn't that good anymore.

As for the Maquis, the conflict did eventually fade out, and there was no distinction after a couple of episodes, rather than even a season. So, it is a legitimate complaint, not a whine, because it didn't last very long at all.

And if it did last a whole season, you think they'd be happy with that? Instead of clamoring for 7 seasons of it?

We saw it in DS9 (Siege of AR-558), and even in "Day of the Dove" were the crew is under stress and has to fight their way through it.

And both were confined to single episodes. What do you think the reaction would be if VOY did a single episode plot like that?

Heck, M*A*S*H did it and that was a comedy that was as episodic as you could get.

How often did M.A.S.H. do it?

Working in customer service, I get this a lot. People don't want a reason that product is bad-they want it to be fixed.

I did customer service for years as well, which is what's informed my attitude towards those kind of people.

Also, it does nothing to support the position of VOY to call anyone a "whiny bitch" because that is attacking a person, not a position, based upon opinion not demonstrable fact. So, if you disagree with someone that's one thing. Attacking them personally does nothing to substantiate your position.

Maybe not, but Moore really didn't know what he was talking about given how badly his own attempt at such a show ended.

 

[Dick_Valentine]

It's not the audiences fault that the show sucked, in in the few instances when a show has contrived to do what it thinks its audience wants to see it has resulted in some of the worst television in history.

Look at 1980s Doctor Who for a prime example of this.

Voyager's faults was some bad writing, sure. Cheesy acting, certainly, but Trek fans have overlooked worse in the past, even from their much exalted TOS era.

No Voyager's problem was that it was just so formulaic, and moreover, it was a formula that was played out for a good 7 years over on their big brother alpha quadrant series.
But the top brass just didn't feel like breaking the formula, despite setting a few balls in motion with its premise that felt like they were going to.
When a series looks like its going to take a franchise in a bold new direction then instead falls back on a tried and trusted formula, well, you can't blame the fans for being severely disappointed.

 

[fireproof78]

Again, despite protests to the contrary, VOY had positive reviews for many episodes, despite the audience fatigue, which has been established.

Well, maybe now. Especially since most major Anti-Voyager shows crashed and burned (NuBSG and SGU) they're re-evaluating and realize what they thought would be a good plot really isn't that good anymore.

As for the Maquis, the conflict did eventually fade out, and there was no distinction after a couple of episodes, rather than even a season. So, it is a legitimate complaint, not a whine, because it didn't last very long at all.

And if it did last a whole season, you think they'd be happy with that? Instead of clamoring for 7 seasons of it?



And both were confined to single episodes. What do you think the reaction would be if VOY did a single episode plot like that?



How often did M.A.S.H. do it?

Working in customer service, I get this a lot. People don't want a reason that product is bad-they want it to be fixed.

I did customer service for years as well, which is what's informed my attitude towards those kind of people.

Also, it does nothing to support the position of VOY to call anyone a "whiny bitch" because that is attacking a person, not a position, based upon opinion not demonstrable fact. So, if you disagree with someone that's one thing. Attacking them personally does nothing to substantiate your position.

Maybe not, but Moore really didn't know what he was talking about given how badly his own attempt at such a show ended.

First of all, while I understand your opinion towards Moore, I neither agree with it, nor think that his success or failure with nuBSG (depending on who you ask) impacts his experience on VOY. I also would still value his opinion, regardless of my personal opinion.

Secondly, if the VOY plot had been done like BSG or like SGU from the beginning, then I think the audience would have been more accepting. The point is, they never really did. By the time they did try, the TNG formula was in full swing meaning that the was the procedure for VOY. So, hey it's rote, but we have it down. Now change it. Not so comfortable at first, but if the change is followed through on, it becomes the new normal. I've done it in business, life, relationships, and entertainment. It can be done, if individuals are willing to see it through. Given the lack of consistency in VOY, I think that an unwillingness to follow through was part of the problem.

Thirdly, M*A*S*H did a "stressed out, under pressure" at least once a season, sometimes as part of a two part series. The whole premise of the series is dealing with the stress of war, by any means necessary. Each character hit their breaking point, and dealt with it. The Episode "Dreams" is probably one of the more famous ones.

Could it be done in a Trek setting? Sure. Is it sustainable for seven years? Probably not, but few premises are, apart of maybe Law and Order

The point is, VOY never tried. From the beginning it was TNG style stories, with the occasional "Will they get home?" plot.

By the way, I cannot find any contemporary evidence of audience panning or criticism either. So, please cite sources to back up the claim that the majority of the audience "hated" VOY.

 

[Anwar]

First of all, while I understand your opinion towards Moore, I neither agree with it, nor think that his success or failure with nuBSG (depending on who you ask) impacts his experience on VOY. I also would still value his opinion, regardless of my personal opinion.

I'm just saying his own attempts to do the show "his way" were no more successful. He wanted equal runtime (7 seasons) and barely managed 2.

Secondly, if the VOY plot had been done like BSG or like SGU from the beginning, then I think the audience would have been more accepting.

If it'd been done like those shows, the show would have been over in 2 years.

Given the lack of consistency in VOY, I think that an unwillingness to follow through was part of the problem.

And a lack of appreciation or positivity from any changes they tried to make didn't help either. Compare this to the 100% adoration rating NuBSG got for every single change they ever made no matter how stupid.

Thirdly, M*A*S*H did a "stressed out, under pressure" at least once a season, sometimes as part of a two part series. The whole premise of the series is dealing with the stress of war, by any means necessary. Each character hit their breaking point, and dealt with it. The Episode "Dreams" is probably one of the more famous ones.

Good for M.A.S.H. but would it work in VOY? If their stress gets resolved, then the complaint is that it got resolved.

Could it be done in a Trek setting? Sure. Is it sustainable for seven years? Probably not, but few premises are, apart of maybe Law and Order

That's the problem with a Gilligan plot.

By the way, I cannot find any contemporary evidence of audience panning or criticism either. So, please cite sources to back up the claim that the majority of the audience "hated" VOY.

Like I said, go to the DS9 board and ask if anyone has anything nice to say about VOY.

 

[eyeresist]

Good for M.A.S.H. but would it work in VOY? If their stress gets resolved, then the complaint is that it got resolved.

MASH's stress was not resolved until the finale (and even then it was more "Thank god that's over" than a memory wipe/reset). MASH had a few "heavy" eps each season, but even the most comedic eps had the underlying sense of exhaustion, lack of resources, home-sickness and what weapons do to bodies, that derived from the show's premise and underpinned the plots.

 

[Anwar]

Good for M.A.S.H. but would it work in VOY? If their stress gets resolved, then the complaint is that it got resolved.

MASH's stress was not resolved until the finale (and even then it was more "Thank god that's over" than a memory wipe/reset). MASH had a few "heavy" eps each season, but even the most comedic eps had the underlying sense of exhaustion, lack of resources, home-sickness and what weapons do to bodies, that derived from the show's premise and underpinned the plots.

Exactly what I'm getting at. Apparently it's impossible for VOY to have ever done its conflict right except by keeping it going until the last minute of the series finale.

IE, the crew is still conflicting and refusing the work together even when a Borg Cube is assaulting them.

In DS9 they had more reason to be conflicted and stressed out, but they weren't. No one cared.

 

[fireproof78]

First of all, while I understand your opinion towards Moore, I neither agree with it, nor think that his success or failure with nuBSG (depending on who you ask) impacts his experience on VOY. I also would still value his opinion, regardless of my personal opinion.

I'm just saying his own attempts to do the show "his way" were no more successful. He wanted equal runtime (7 seasons) and barely managed 2.

Secondly, if the VOY plot had been done like BSG or like SGU from the beginning, then I think the audience would have been more accepting.

If it'd been done like those shows, the show would have been over in 2 years.

And a lack of appreciation or positivity from any changes they tried to make didn't help either. Compare this to the 100% adoration rating NuBSG got for every single change they ever made no matter how stupid.



Good for M.A.S.H. but would it work in VOY? If their stress gets resolved, then the complaint is that it got resolved.

Could it be done in a Trek setting? Sure. Is it sustainable for seven years? Probably not, but few premises are, apart of maybe Law and Order

That's the problem with a Gilligan plot.

By the way, I cannot find any contemporary evidence of audience panning or criticism either. So, please cite sources to back up the claim that the majority of the audience "hated" VOY.

Like I said, go to the DS9 board and ask if anyone has anything nice to say about VOY.

That is a select population and not the entirety of Trek fandom, or the viewing audience. So, I don't think that the audience "hated" VOY at every turn, despite the assertions. I've been on boards were anything other than TOS was held as "not Trek." Does that mean that the fandom hates everything not TOS? Or the convention were the fans were polled and Into Darkness was rated the "worst Trek film." Does that mean the entire fandom or movie going audience "hated" Into Darkness?

For nuBSG, given the fact that the network was different, the powers that be were different, etc, we are not in the position to judge why nuBSG failed, and pointing the finger straight at Moore is gross exaggeration, just like blaming the audience for VOY's failings.

For example, having friends who followed nuBSG religiously, there was not 100% adoration for all that they did. The reveal of the Cylon models, and the Pegasus were generally regarded with disfavor, at least in my circle. YMMV

Regarding the "Lost Ship/Gilligan" plot, VOY doesn't have to be over in two years if you allow the plot to play out. Instead, you pick up a new plot, like DS9 did with the Dominion War, Farscape did with the Scarran/Peacekeeper War, Atlantis with the Daedalus and threat of the Wraith, etc. The tools are there, but VOY never made good use of them. I maintain that VOY never did anything with the Lost Ship plot except lip service. It was TNG except in the DQ. That's ok, but it could be a whole lot more.

The way M*A*S*H was structured could work to a degree. The whole reason that show worked was the characters were interesting, both in funny moments and in serious moments. They were people, flesh and blood, whom I believed could crack at a moment's notice. Start there-start with the characters and give them a story that informs their actions. Again, we get lip service to the fact that Tuvok resents Chakotay being first officer. Boy, that tension lasted long didn't it? (Answer: No, it didn't) Or the fact that Tom and Chakotay hate each other. Wow, that lasted all of the pilot. Amazing (sarcasm).

Now, before my words are parsed out out of context, I am not saying that it last the entire *bleeping* series, and I have yet to hear someone argue for that. And, if so, please provide direct quotes stating that support. But, have character stuff, beyond Neelix's jealousy of Tom over Kes, matter.

But no, things were formulaic, they were reset when they should not have been and didn't need to be. I don't have VOY but it is so frustrating to think of what it could have been.

Finally, if people like VOY and think it is unappreciated, that's fine. I feel that way about a lot of films and shows. But please don't sit there and tell me that it is my fault for not appreciating VOY just as it is, when there is little that engages me, on an individual level, to enjoy it. I didn't write it, and neither did the rest of the viewing audience.

Good for M.A.S.H. but would it work in VOY? If their stress gets resolved, then the complaint is that it got resolved.

MASH's stress was not resolved until the finale (and even then it was more "Thank god that's over" than a memory wipe/reset). MASH had a few "heavy" eps each season, but even the most comedic eps had the underlying sense of exhaustion, lack of resources, home-sickness and what weapons do to bodies, that derived from the show's premise and underpinned the plots.

Exactly what I'm getting at. Apparently it's impossible for VOY to have ever done its conflict right except by keeping it going until the last minute of the series finale.

IE, the crew is still conflicting and refusing the work together even when a Borg Cube is assaulting them.

In DS9 they had more reason to be conflicted and stressed out, but they weren't. No one cared.

Not what is being asked for at all.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

The Borg wouldn't have killed 60 billion in 2381 if Janway hadn't frakked their Transwarp network.

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Borg_Invasion_of_2381

That's not, and will never be considered, official cannon.

 

[Titch]

I always found Voyager the compassionate series of all the Star Treks. I thought they did leave a few unanswered questions and episodes hanging but as a whole. To watch the crew evolve into better and stronger people (well all but Harry) was great.

 

[MacLeod]

In any TV show/film there are things that some people will like and some things they won't, and they won't always be the same things. Did nBSG get everything right no of course not but the things I might have liked/disliked might be different from someone else. The same goes with VOY there are some aspects I liked some I didn't for example, I felt characterisation was weak for some of the characters, the same goes for ENT.

 

[Dobian]

Well Star Trek shows in general have never been known for their gritty realism, unless "real" for someone means people in candy-colored polyester jumpsuits zipping through space on their Carnival cruise ship. All Star Trek shows are feel-good at their core, and most conflicts are easily resolved. I liked Voyager well enough. I couldn't stand Janeway, and I thought the series failed at depicting how the social and leadership dynamics would change (dramatically so) in a scenario where the crew believed that they would likely never make it home. If written well, Voyager would have been very different in the last season from the first. But it had a lot of good one-off episodes and some interesting story arcs, like Seven's development.

 

[Anwar]

That is a select population and not the entirety of Trek fandom, or the viewing audience. So, I don't think that the audience "hated" VOY at every turn, despite the assertions. I've been on boards were anything other than TOS was held as "not Trek." Does that mean that the fandom hates everything not TOS? Or the convention were the fans were polled and Into Darkness was rated the "worst Trek film." Does that mean the entire fandom or movie going audience "hated" Into Darkness?

Maybe, but even to this day VOY gets hit with negativity instead of people just moving on.

For nuBSG, given the fact that the network was different, the powers that be were different, etc, we are not in the position to judge why nuBSG failed, and pointing the finger straight at Moore is gross exaggeration, just like blaming the audience for VOY's failings.

Maybe, but it's hypocritical for VOY Haters to be so willfully ignorant of NuBSG's failures.

Regarding the "Lost Ship/Gilligan" plot, VOY doesn't have to be over in two years if you allow the plot to play out. Instead, you pick up a new plot, like DS9 did with the Dominion War, Farscape did with the Scarran/Peacekeeper War, Atlantis with the Daedalus and threat of the Wraith, etc. The tools are there, but VOY never made good use of them.

Like I said, every attempt at something new was met with derision. I don't see what workable tools they had. Maybe some rusty old ones that didn't work right.

I maintain that VOY never did anything with the Lost Ship plot except lip service.

Maybe, but it's still inherently limited.

Start there-start with the characters and give them a story that informs their actions. Again, we get lip service to the fact that Tuvok resents Chakotay being first officer. Boy, that tension lasted long didn't it? (Answer: No, it didn't) Or the fact that Tom and Chakotay hate each other. Wow, that lasted all of the pilot. Amazing (sarcasm).

Those had to end eventually, though not one episode or so.

I still don't see why Chakotay and Paris hated each other that much, they only served together very briefly.

Now, before my words are parsed out out of context, I am not saying that it last the entire *bleeping* series, and I have yet to hear someone argue for that.

Usually those who keep saying it should've been more like nuBSG or SGU where the conflicts didn't end.

I don't have VOY but it is so frustrating to think of what it could have been.

The Lost Ship thing alone could've worked as a maxi-series, but not much more.

 

[eyeresist]

Maybe, but even to this day VOY gets hit with negativity instead of people just moving on.

Hey, I'm an ENT fan - your pain is as nothing compared with mine

 

[MacLeod]

Even if you accept the claim that every attempt at doing something new was met with derision, given the nature of sechdules the writers couldn't now how the audiance would react until several weeks if not months after the episode was written/made. but could it be because it was viewed as paying lip service, we'll do something new for an episode or two and then go back to how it used to be?

As for the so called Gilligans Island/lost ship plot call it what you want, remember they could easily have technobabbled the ship home anytime they wanted. Returning to the AQ wouldn't necessarily mean the end of the show, esp. After the end of the Dominion War. S6-7 of VOY could easily have done stories in the AQ about rebuilding following the war.

 

[fireproof78]

That is a select population and not the entirety of Trek fandom, or the viewing audience. So, I don't think that the audience "hated" VOY at every turn, despite the assertions. I've been on boards were anything other than TOS was held as "not Trek." Does that mean that the fandom hates everything not TOS? Or the convention were the fans were polled and Into Darkness was rated the "worst Trek film." Does that mean the entire fandom or movie going audience "hated" Into Darkness?

Maybe, but even to this day VOY gets hit with negativity instead of people just moving on.

For nuBSG, given the fact that the network was different, the powers that be were different, etc, we are not in the position to judge why nuBSG failed, and pointing the finger straight at Moore is gross exaggeration, just like blaming the audience for VOY's failings.

Maybe, but it's hypocritical for VOY Haters to be so willfully ignorant of NuBSG's failures.



Like I said, every attempt at something new was met with derision. I don't see what workable tools they had. Maybe some rusty old ones that didn't work right.



Maybe, but it's still inherently limited.



Those had to end eventually, though not one episode or so.

I still don't see why Chakotay and Paris hated each other that much, they only served together very briefly.

Now, before my words are parsed out out of context, I am not saying that it last the entire *bleeping* series, and I have yet to hear someone argue for that.

Usually those who keep saying it should've been more like nuBSG or SGU where the conflicts didn't end.

I don't have VOY but it is so frustrating to think of what it could have been.

The Lost Ship thing alone could've worked as a maxi-series, but not much more.

So the main complaint is that VOY still gets derided? If that is the case, then that is nothing new to Trek fandom either. Star Trek: The Motion Picture, Final Frontier, Generations and Nemesis still get decried as poor cinematic quality, and I could pick out an episode from each series that is laughed at on a regular basis (Spock's Brain, anyone?).

It might be hypocritical to not know nuBSG's failings, but that is a difference of two different fandoms. That's why I said it is outside our scope and purpose here to discuss such failings. You can't really compare the two, especially because one show was a continuation of a successful series and the other destroyed any previous continuity.

Here's the thing about a negative experience, such as my experience with "Fight Club." Fight Club was built up to me by my friends but it left a bad taste in my mouth and I don't like that movie. To this day, if you ask me about poor movie experiences, not about that specific film, I'll tell you that I don't like Fight Club (any comments can be PMed to me, ok? ). Same thing with VOY, Abrams Trek, even early TNG, where the entertainment experience is negative. People, as a general rule, do not watch shows that they hate for the sake of hating on them. They want to watch something that makes them feel good at the end, and that's it. VOY is one of those things that is a negative experience and that sticks with people. A rule in customer service is that if you offend one customer, you just lost ten, because that one customer will tell 9 of their friends about their bad experience. VOY is not different than a bad product experience that left a bad taste in someone's mouth. It isn't hatred that burns forever-that requires an emotional investment. It's just negative, and it comes out on the Internet for years afterwards.

By the way, if VOY never did anything with the Lost Ship premise, but promised they would, I think I am allowed to feel frustrated at an unfulfilled promise. I think that is a fair emotion to feel. Please stop arguing that the premise is limited-I get that. The point is, they rarely did it, and by the time they did, they were already stuck in a TNG rut that would not allow for change unless they committed whole heatedly to it. Change didn't happen because of ratings or "The Audience" (Some please define that term). Change didn't happen because TPTB were committed to the formulaic approach and never committed to any long term change.

If you or I don't see workable tools, that's fine-I honestly do, but that's me. It is not my job, as the viewer, to sit there and tell them how to to their job better. Creative staffs are there to create the show, and make it work. VOY had a whole back story of Trek to work from to create characters. There really is no excuse to have 1 dimensional characters in a franchise with such rich history.

I have little sympathy for VOY's staff because they did have tools to work with-evidenced by some good shows that would pop up. They had great concepts that were never fully realized, and that's disappointing.

 

[apollo1984]

I still don't see why Chakotay and Paris hated each other that much, they only served together very briefly.

I think it was because that Chakotay was principled man who joined the marquee to protect his homeland and to stand up for what he believed in, in Paris he saw nothing but a mercenary who's principles changed upon "who was paying his bar bills".

I think it was a pure case of clashing personalities, I mean how many people in the world take an instant dislike to someone.

As for why his attitude changed so dramatically after the first episode, he probably looked past his initial assessment of Paris after Paris risked killing himself in order to save Chakotay, regardless of the reason he saw that Paris risked his life for something other than money.

Now as for Voyager being a disappointment, I do agree that whilst I enjoyed voyager as a whole I did find that there were too many "main cast" characters who were simply wasted, Chakotay who was portrayed as this principled character turned into Janeway's lapdog overnight, Harry Kim who still was pretty much the same throughout the series (with the exception of his journey quote in the final episode(s)), Tuvok had no major growth, Paris and Torres seemed to finish part way through the series pretty much ending once they got together and married.

The characters that did get focus during the series being Janeway, The Doctor and Seven with 7 and Doc essentially being stories that have been told before in trek i.e. "outsiders of humanity" trying to integrate (Spock) and trying to become human (Data). As for Janeway, I was never that impressed with her from the begining (don't know why I just don't rate her in my list of captains)

That's one of the reasons I am really enjoying the relaunch novels (at least up to Children of the Storm) characters see to be getting progression (well not in the case of Kim but I suppose some things are not supposed to change) and the fact that some characters are not there at all (though I do know of things to come) with my favourite character actually being Chakotay as seeing him as a Captain as this "strong but wise" leader.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

It might be hypocritical to not know nuBSG's failings, but that is a difference of two different fandoms. That's why I said it is outside our scope and purpose here to discuss such failings. You can't really compare the two, especially because one show was a continuation of a successful series and the other destroyed any previous continuity.

In this conversation, the failings (which really haven't detracted much from the fondness people have for BSG) were not the result of the continuing Lost Ship narrative, but the result of straying from that narrative. Long stretches of the latter seasons focused on mysticism and intrigued. Things like the Cult of Baltar, the Final Five, and the resurrection of Starbuck alienated much of the core audience. OTOH, the producers of Voyager lacked the courage to let the premise of the show evolve. It didn't always have to be the Lost Ship. However, when opportunities to reposition the show came up, it was used as an opportunity to reinforce the Lost Ship story. As others have mentioned, the ship could have made it back to the AQ before the seventh season. More often, though, the opportunity arose for the ship to become a more permanent fixture in the DQ. Whenever such a possibility was raised, Janeway turned into an authoritarian figure (largely against character), insisting that they had to go HHHHHHOOOOOOMMMMMEEEE! (See Scorpion I and II.) A premise isn't a straightjacket, but when it mattered to the story, it constrained the possibilities of storytelling.

 

[fireproof78]

It might be hypocritical to not know nuBSG's failings, but that is a difference of two different fandoms. That's why I said it is outside our scope and purpose here to discuss such failings. You can't really compare the two, especially because one show was a continuation of a successful series and the other destroyed any previous continuity.

In this conversation, the failings (which really haven't detracted much from the fondness people have for BSG) were not the result of the continuing Lost Ship narrative, but the result of straying from that narrative. Long stretches of the latter seasons focused on mysticism and intrigued. Things like the Cult of Baltar, the Final Five, and the resurrection of Starbuck alienated much of the core audience. OTOH, the producers of Voyager lacked the courage to let the premise of the show evolve. It didn't always have to be the Lost Ship. However, when opportunities to reposition the show came up, it was used as an opportunity to reinforce the Lost Ship story. As others have mentioned, the ship could have made it back to the AQ before the seventh season. More often, though, the opportunity arose for the ship to become a more permanent fixture in the DQ. Whenever such a possibility was raised, Janeway turned into an authoritarian figure (largely against character), insisting that they had to go HHHHHHOOOOOOMMMMMEEEE! (See Scorpion I and II.) A premise isn't a straightjacket, but when it mattered to the story, it constrained the possibilities of storytelling.

I agree that the premise of VOY became the box within which it existed, and that was it. It does not feel like the premise was ever used to expand upon the human experience, in a way that nuBSG attempted to do, with mixed results.

I'll tangent briefly on nuBSG's failings, because I don't think it centered on the Lost Ship plot line, so much as it centered on the darker aspects of humanity, without always the through line of hope. For me, that is very tough to maintain for a series as well.

That is one aspect that VOY had an advantage over things like Farscape, or Stargate: SG-1 was the idea of hope and positivity in future. Farscape could often be dark (or very silly) and sometimes lacked that sense of hope. Trek has always been emphasizing a positive future, and that humanity will become better. So, you have the joining of two crews, one who is not Starfleet, and exists on the fringes of Federation society. They embrace a less positive, more survivalist attitude and expect conflict, while Starfleet works to avoid conflict. Over the course of a season, you have characters evolve from having to be self-reliant, to relying on each other as the crews come together. It's a simple thing, really, but it shows character depth and the potential for change.

 

[Dobian]

I still don't see why Chakotay and Paris hated each other that much, they only served together very briefly.

Now as for Voyager being a disappointment, I do agree that whilst I enjoyed voyager as a whole I did find that there were too many "main cast" characters who were simply wasted, Chakotay who was portrayed as this principled character turned into Janeway's lapdog overnight...

Chakotay pissed me off more than any other character on the show. Janeway completely neutered him. I lost count of how many times I screamed at him on the tv to grow a pair.