Why the Resistance to Starfleet as a Military?

[YARN]

The Eminiar were the 2nd party, obviously, and escalated the situation to conflict level by declaring their intent to take the Enterprise and murder the entire crew.

LOL, by "2nd party" I though you meant a space-faring outside party (like Klingons hiding in the bushes, which usually allows for bending the prime directive).

In The Corbomite Maneuver they encounter a warning buoy, destroy it, and then press on ahead into that sector anyhow.

In Requiem for Methusela it goes like this:

KIRK: Let's get that ryetalyn.
(A strange device comes travelling through the air towards them. A bit like Nomad, but much smaller and with more round bits. It fires an energy beam at the landing party's feet. They try to fire their phasers.)
KIRK: Inoperative.
(The device fires again, and closes in.)
FLINT: Do not kill.
(The device backs away and a silver-haired man in sort of doublet and hose approaches)
KIRK: I'm Captain James Kirk
FLINT: I know who you are. I have monitored your ship since it entered this system.
KIRK: Then if you know who we are, you know why we're here, Mister?
FLINT: Flint. You will leave my planet.
SPOCK: Did you say your planet, sir?
FLINT: My retreat from the unpleasantness of life on Earth, and the company of people.
KIRK: Mister Flint, I have a sick crew up there. We can't possibly reach another planet in time. You can't refuse us the ryetalyn.
FLINT: You're trespassing, Captain.
KIRK: We're in need! We'll pay for it, work for it, trade for it. FLINT: You have nothing I want.
KIRK: But you have the ryetalyn that we need! If necessary, we'll take it.

From here Kirk proceeds to attempt to steal the affections of Flint's fembot, resulting in the death of an artificial life form.

How was this situation in any way precipitated by Starfleet?

The Eminarians specifically ordered/warned Starfleet not to visit them. They did so anyway and became subject to their jurisdiction, which they promptly refused as soon as it became inconvenient.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

That's because they replaced it with a "Ministry of Public Security," much in the same way Japan's SDF is technically a part of its police force, at least on paper. I doubt they have need of much of a military as they aren't exactly high on anyone's list of places to conquer, and I'm sure the United States places them under its umbrella of protection. This is hardly comparable to the Federation.

Don't be so sure. We've been wondering for many years what happened to the First Federation. Maybe Balok promised to keep the Federation safe from all the Big Time powers and the Klingons Empire is actually the Mexico of the galaxy?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Actions speak louder than words.

"Military" is a word. Like most words, its meaning varies with the times and is sometimes arbitrary depending on the context. The most you can say is that Starfleet does things that have historically been done BY militaries (and also paramilitaries), but at the end of the day, it's just a word.

Does Starfleet describe ITSELF as a military? No it doesn't, in fact it goes out of its way to avoid that definition when possible. The are the de facto military of the Federation, certainly... to the extent that the Federation can be said to have a standing military. In the same way that Roskosmos is the de facto space force of the Russian Federation... to the extent that the Russian Federation can be said to have a standing "space force" as such. The fact that Soyuz pilots have been armed with some fairly sophisticated weapons over the years doesn't muddy the water all that much.

 

[Vincent Law]

Does a rose by any other name not smell just as sweet?

So once again, I am left to wonder where all this resistance to Starfleet being a military comes from. Starfleet does act like a military in every way, and not just as a "de facto" military, even if it is still a fairly poor military, so why the resistance?

 

[BillJ]

How was this situation in any way precipitated by Starfleet?

Because they ignored the original 'code 710' being broadcast by the Eminians. They were told to stay away and went anyway... entering Eminian space against the wishes of the Eminian government.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ But they had a *reason* for doing so: investigating the disappearance of the Valiant. Starfleet has every right to do that.

 

[The Librarian]

By that standard, it would be fine for the Romulans to waltz on over to Earth to look for a disappeared warbird and then bombard the planet after the local cops arrested a landing party. It's really kind of hard to justify Kirk's order to commit genocide against the people of Eminar given that his ship didn't have to be there and wasn't threatened.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Is there any proof that Starfleet *really* has an order to lay waste to a planet? Kirk could have just been bullshitting the Eminians. Garth also mentioned it in "Whom Gods Destroy," but Garth was totally insane anyway, so nothing he says can be taken at face value.

 

[BillJ]

^ But they had a *reason* for doing so: investigating the disappearance of the Valiant. Starfleet has every right to do that.

So if the Russians crash a fighter jet on American soil they have 'every right' to investigate regardless of what the U.S. thought?

Even Kirk acknowledges that it is their planet when receiving the code 710 and only goes in when Fox orders him to. He was essentially painted into a corner by both Fox and the Eminians.

 

[BillJ]

Is there any proof that Starfleet *really* has an order to lay waste to a planet? Kirk could have just been bullshitting the Eminians. Garth also mentioned it in "Whom Gods Destroy," but Garth was totally insane anyway, so nothing he says can be taken at face value.

SCOTT: Open a channel, Lieutenant. This is the commander of the USS Enterprise.
SCOTT [OC]: All cities and installations on Eminiar Seven have been located, identified, and fed into our fire-control system. In one hour and forty five minutes
SCOTT: The entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed.
***
KIRK: Everything's secure here. Maintain position. If everything goes according to plan, you can beam us up in ten minutes. If you don't hear from us, carry out General Order Twenty Four on schedule.
SCOTT [OC]: Aye, aye, Captain. Is there anything else we can do?

Sure doesn't seem like a bluff to me.

 

[T'Girl]

KIRK: Everything's secure here. Maintain position. If everything goes according to plan, you can beam us up in ten minutes. If you don't hear from us, carry out General Order Twenty Four on schedule.

As I recall, Kirk said that to Scotty while standing in the local government council chamber, surrounded by local inhabitants. So perhaps he wanted to keep the bluff going for the Eminiaroids in case something unexpected happen. If local police suddenly stormed the room, Kirk could have continued to use the GA 24 lie to talk his way though.

Scotty was just playing along.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Does a rose by any other name not smell just as sweet?

Indeed. However, "red flower that smells sweet" is not necessarily a rose, even if it works just as well in getting into your girlfriend's panties.

So once again, I am left to wonder where all this resistance to Starfleet being a military comes from.

It comes from Starfleet, to be sure. Only THEY know why.

 

[neozeks]

So once again, I am left to wonder where all this resistance to Starfleet being a military comes from.

It comes from Starfleet, to be sure. Only THEY know why.

Do we have any other proof of that, except that one Picard line?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

No.

There was that bit in ENT when Admiral Forrest says "You don't have a problem with having the military on board, do you?" (talking about the MACOs) and Archer replies that he has no problem with non-Starfleet personnel, but that was a different Starfleet. Earth Starfleet is not military, but the Federation Starfleet is. They're two different organizations that just happen to have the same name.

 

[Vincent Law]

Indeed. However, "red flower that smells sweet" is not necessarily a rose, even if it works just as well in getting into your girlfriend's panties.

Except that in this case the flower looks like a rose and actually still is a rose.

It comes from Starfleet, to be sure. Only THEY know why.

I am speaking more of the fans who will come up with almost any rationalization to avoid seeing Starfleet as a military, as if they must resist the idea at any cost because it would somehow effect their enjoyment of the show.

 

[CoveTom]

Speaking from a "real world" rather than "in universe" perspective...

Starfleet was obviously originally created as a military organization. Roddenberry originally referred to it as "Captain Horatio Hornblower in outer space." Kirk said he was a soldier, not a diplomat. And, as Harve Bennett once observed, it was Roddenberry who put phasers aboard the Enterprise.

Later, as Roddenberry was elevated to quasi-deity status by the fans and began to pursue this notion that he was a great visionary, attempting to argue that Starfleet was not a military was one of the many changes in attitude he had. That was carried over into the on-screen attitudes of characters like Picard.

Simple as that.

 

[BillJ]

Speaking from a "real world" rather than "in universe" perspective...

Starfleet was obviously originally created as a military organization. Roddenberry originally referred to it as "Captain Horatio Hornblower in outer space." Kirk said he was a soldier, not a diplomat. And, as Harve Bennett once observed, it was Roddenberry who put phasers aboard the Enterprise.

Later, as Roddenberry was elevated to quasi-deity status by the fans and began to pursue this notion that he was a great visionary, attempting to argue that Starfleet was not a military was one of the many changes in attitude he had. That was carried over into the on-screen attitudes of characters like Picard.

Simple as that.

This pretty much sums it up.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Speaking from a "real world" rather than "in universe" perspective...

Starfleet was obviously originally created as a military organization. Roddenberry originally referred to it as "Captain Horatio Hornblower in outer space." Kirk said he was a soldier, not a diplomat. And, as Harve Bennett once observed, it was Roddenberry who put phasers aboard the Enterprise.

Later, as Roddenberry was elevated to quasi-deity status by the fans and began to pursue this notion that he was a great visionary, attempting to argue that Starfleet was not a military was one of the many changes in attitude he had. That was carried over into the on-screen attitudes of characters like Picard.

Simple as that.

This pretty much sums it up.

Or was it a case that Roddenberry wanted to depict that Starfleet had evolved from TOS into more of an exploration fleet by the time of TNG? That wouldn't by any means diminish Starfleet's role as the Federation's defender, but it could reflect on the way Starfleet saw itself, by promoting its exploration and scientific aspects more than its defensive endeavors.

In such a case, Picard would be simply spouting the rhetoric that was in place at the time in the same way that Kirk did in his...

 

[Crazy Eddie]

So once again, I am left to wonder where all this resistance to Starfleet being a military comes from.

It comes from Starfleet, to be sure. Only THEY know why.

Do we have any other proof of that, except that one Picard line?

Apart from the general lack of willingness by officers to refer to themselves as a military, there's also this:

KIRK: I agree there was a time when war was necessary, and you were our greatest warrior. I studied your victory at Axanar when I was a cadet. In fact it's still required reading at the Academy.
GARTH: As well it should be.
KIRK: Very well. But my first visit to Axanar was as a new fledged cadet on a peace mission.
GARTH: Peace mission! Politicians and weaklings!
KIRK: They were humanitarians and statesmen, and they had a dream. A dream that became a reality and spread throughout the stars, a dream that made Mister Spock and me brothers.

Though outdated by subsequent episodes, the general implication here is that Starfleet is either attempting or has already managed to reduce its military role to a secondary aspect.

If you try to make this consistent with ENT, you find that they've been trying to do this for a century already by Kirk's time and still haven't really pulled it off by the 24th century. And just like in Kirk's time, they're just a quick to pull the same conceited "We've evolved beyond militarism line," as Janeway puts it in "Flashback."

JANEWAY: Space must have seemed a whole lot bigger back then. It's not surprising they had to bend the rules a little. They were a little slower to invoke the Prime Directive, and a little quicker to pull their phasers. Of course, the whole bunch of them would be booted out of Starfleet today. But I have to admit, I would have loved to ride shotgun at least once with a group of officers like that.

It might just be vanity, or conceit, or whatever, but for some reason every generation of Starfleet officers like to think of themselves as less militaristic than the previous one, even if this is far from the case.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Indeed. However, "red flower that smells sweet" is not necessarily a rose, even if it works just as well in getting into your girlfriend's panties.

Except that in this case the flower looks like a rose and actually still is a rose.

And a rose-scented chicken wing shall be called what?

I am speaking more of the fans who will come up with almost any rationalization to avoid seeing Starfleet as a military, as if they must resist the idea at any cost because it would somehow effect their enjoyment of the show.

So am I. The point is the only time Starfleet officers make ANY self-description vis a vis their status as a military, it's always in the negative, or as an ambiguity. As for those fans, it's not so much a rejection of their status AS a military, but a recognition of the fact that Starfleet has always been intentionally ambiguous about their own status and that this ambiguity is a bit more accurate than the "it's a military" simplification.