Why the hate for Alex Kurtzman?

[Ray Hardgrit]

Every series since 2017 has had some connection to TOS or the 90s shows to a lesser or greater degree.

 

[Lord Garth]

Every series since 2017 has had some connection to TOS or the 90s shows to a lesser or greater degree.

Yup.

TNG --> Aside from there being the TOS crossovers, I feel like I know the Klingons and Romulans better through this series than TOS.

DS9 --> The Bajorans, Cardassians, Trill, and Ferengi were introduced in TNG. A major part of Sisko's backstory is rooted in "The Best of Both Worlds". The O'Briens and eventually Worf are part of the cast. Once TNG ended, all the ongoing political storylines with the Klingons and Romulans transferred over to DS9. DS9 inherited the Mirror Universe from TOS. As well as Kor, Koloth, and Kang.

VOY --> Picked up the Maquis storyline that was already built up on TNG and DS9. Q appeared three times. Several TNG cast members appeared during different points. Barclay and Troi were even recurring characters for a while as the main contacts in Alpha Quadrant during the later seasons. Oh, and Tuvok is a Vulcan. Torres is half-Klingon. Then there's the Borg, who became more prominent on VOY than they ever were on TNG.

ENT --> This is as much of a spin-off of First Contact as it is a prequel to TOS. It picks up almost 90 years after First Contact, seeing where relations stand between Humans and Vulcans. A recording of Zephram Cochrane is seen. Vulcans are prominent throughout the series. "Regeneration" follows up on a reactivated Borg Drone from the movie. Beyond the FC elements: The Ferengi appeared in an episode. One episode focuses on Rura Penthe! Archer's main Klingon adversary is an ancestor of Duras. The Andorians are brought back, are made a major race, and are expanded upon. And all of this was even before the fourth season.

No Star Trek series created after TOS exists in a vacuum of total isolation. There's no such thing. If someone wants a series to start from total scratch and have absolutely nothing else from anything else, I'd say "good luck with that" because that's never going to happen. There are other reasons to like the shows and there's no need to fixate on "Oh my God! They have something from another series! Oh no! I can't live with this! Crime against Star Trek! Crime against Humanity!" Star Trek builds on previous things. That's just the way it is. It expands itself, but it's still rooted in what there was.

I said this once on here a long time ago (even before the first Kelvin Movie came out): The Wrath of Khan and First Contact, generally considered to be the best TOS and TNG Movies respectively, were built off previous episodes. Yet they're still highly regarded. Building off of "Space Seed" and "The Best of Both Worlds" gave those movies added context.

 

[Dukhat]

Ron Moore basically single-handedly created the TNG Klingon culture, which retconned a bunch of things from TOS. He was also responsible for much of DS9's move away from the Federation being always virtuous and optimistic, which it never really was anyway. Corrupt badmirals and officials have been a staple since TOS.

Michael Piller also had much to do with that.

 

[BillJ]

No Star Trek series created after TOS exists in a vacuum of total isolation.

I think the difference being in the episode counts. It doesn't stick out as badly in the 1987-2005 stuff, because there were a lot more episodes.

 

[Lord Garth]

I think the difference being in the episode counts. It doesn't stick out as badly in the 1987-2005 stuff, because there were a lot more episodes.

Fair enough.

 

[fireproof78]

I agree, the issue isn't that the writers "don't know good Star Trek" as is sometimes levelled at them. Clearly they know it too well, which is itself an issue.

Every series since 2017 has had some connection to TOS or the 90s shows to a lesser or greater degree.

As with many things in life, it's how it is used.

Some connections are decent, with SNW being the lastest example.

Some are mixed.

Some feel very condescending and acting as a reassurance that this really is Star Trek, as if I would turn it off if I didn't see something familiar. News flash producers: I saw Kirk early on in TMP and still turned it off.

 

[Tomalak]

Every series since 2017 has had some connection to TOS or the 90s shows to a lesser or greater degree.

Yup.

TNG --> Aside from there being the TOS crossovers, I feel like I know the Klingons and Romulans better through this series than TOS.

DS9 --> The Bajorans, Cardassians, Trill, and Ferengi were introduced in TNG. A major part of Sisko's backstory is rooted in "The Best of Both Worlds". The O'Briens and eventually Worf are part of the cast. Once TNG ended, all the ongoing political storylines with the Klingons and Romulans transferred over to DS9. DS9 inherited the Mirror Universe from TOS. As well as Kor, Koloth, and Kang.

VOY --> Picked up the Maquis storyline that was already built up on TNG and DS9. Q appeared three times. Several TNG cast members appeared during different points. Barclay and Troi were even recurring characters for a while as the man contact in Alpha Quadrant during the later seasons. Oh, and Tuvok is a Vulcan. Torres is half-Klingon. Then there's the Borg, who became more prominent on VOY than they ever were on TNG.

ENT --> This is as much of a spin-off of First Contact as it is a prequel to TOS. It picks up almost 90 years after First Contact, seeing where relations stand between Humans and Vulcans. A recording of Zephram Cochrane is seen. Vulcans are prominent through the series. "Regeneration" follows up on a reactivated Borg Drone from the movie. Beyond the FC elements: The Ferengi appeared in an episode. One episode focuses on Rura Penthe! Archer's main Klingon adversary is an ancestor of Duras. The Andorians are brought back, are made a major race, and are expanded upon. And all of this was even before the fourth season.

No Star Trek series created after TOS exists in a vacuum of total isolation. There's no such thing. If someone wants a series to start from total scratch and have absolutely nothing else from anything else, I'd say "good luck with that" because that's never going to happen. There are other reasons to like the shows and there's no need to fixate on "Oh my God! They have something from another series! Oh no! I can't live this! Crime against Star Trek! Crime against Humanity!" Star Trek builds on previous things. That's just the way it is. It expands itself, but it's still rooted in what there was.

I said this once on here a long time ago (even before the first Kelvin Movie came out): The Wrath of Khan and First Contact, generally considered to be the best TOS and TNG Movies respectively, were built off previous episodes. Yet they're still highly regarded. Building off of "Space Seed" and "The Best of Both Worlds" gave those movies added context.

I mean, obviously they're all spin-offs of Star Trek, so in that sense nothing is original.

But I feel there is a pretty glaring difference between TNG/VGR/ENT being entirely original characters on a ship in a premise broadly similar to TOS, and building shows around pre-existing primary characters including Picard, Pike/Spock, Janeway, the Doctor etc. Disco came so close but had to fall back on the Spock connection. Don't you think this is a clear pattern that is interesting and worth comment?

The only one of the first gen spin-offs to do this was DS9, with O'Brien and, very nearly, Ro. But they were a couple of a minor guest stars on TNG.

So I actually do give credit for Lower Decks having a cast of entirely new characters rather than giving into the temptation to set the show on Riker's USS Titan or something. Although the rest of the show is not exactly short on legacy character cameos!

 

[Lord Garth]

I mean, obviously they're all spin-offs of Star Trek, so in that sense nothing is original.

But I feel there is a pretty glaring difference between TNG/VGR/ENT being entirely original characters on a ship in a premise broadly similar to TOS, and building shows around pre-existing primary characters including Picard, Pike/Spock, Janeway, the Doctor etc. Disco came so close but had to fall back on the Spock connection.

The only one of the first gen spin-offs to do this was DS9, with O'Brien and, very nearly, Ro. But they were a couple of a minor guest stars on TNG.

So I actually do give credit for Lower Decks having a cast of entirely new characters rather than giving into the temptation to set the show on Riker's USS Titan or something. Although the rest of the show is not exactly short on legacy character cameos!

Well, I'm not a fan of SNW but, nevertheless, I have to be fair. The way the series is designed, it can't have a completely original set of characters. It's starting off with Pike's crew and it has to eventually become Kirk's crew. Given "The Cage", TOS, and natural turnover, I can see how SNW would have a mix of characters from "The Cage", TOS, and totally original characters. That just makes sense. What wouldn't make sense would be if they didn't have that type of combination. I don't agree with some of the choices, but I do agree with the idea.

I basically view PIC as an extension of TNG, so I don't count that.

As far as DSC, yeah, it's true, they gave Burnham the unnecessary Spock connection. I won't argue about that. But, at the same time, it's not like Spock was in that much of the series. Making the connection even more unnecessary, but that's a whole other story. Burnham could've been raised by another Vulcan family, if they really wanted to go that way, instead of riding off the still-existing momentum of the Kelvin Movies by saying, "Spock connection!"

 

[Tomalak]

Well, I'm not a fan of SNW but, nevertheless, I have to be fair. The way the series is designed, it can't have a completely original set of characters. It's starting off with Pike's crew and it has to eventually become Kirk's crew.

But they designed it that way!

It could have been Strange New Worlds set on the USS Potemkin and have a whole new cast, but the whole premise is that it's a TOS prequel.

I love the show and the cast and what they've done with the characters, but it was a conscious decision to revisit Pike and Spock. They even added more legacy characters like Uhura and Chapel who didn't need to be there!

I basically view PIC as an extension of TNG, so I don't count that.

Yes, they chose to do a show that was a sequel to TNG.

Again, I mostly liked the show and it was a no-brainer to get Patrick Stewart back if he was interested, but it's a conscious choice to make a TNG sequel.

Disco pushed the Spock/Enterprise panic button at the first opportunity.

These are the shows the metrics say the fans want. They need to get subscribers and existing characters are the best way to do it. It's the same across genre shows and films. It's why Ewan McGregor is back as Obi-Wan Kenobi, and why Robert Downey Jr is returning to Marvel.

I think this is just how the Trek franchise will go now. Maybe in 20 years they'll do a spin-off of SNW with Celia Rose Gooding as Captain Uhura on the USS Leondegrance. I'll probably end up watching it.

 

[Tomalak]

Just to add, it's interesting that the film project that seems closest to happening is supposedly a brand new cast, albeit it's another prequel.

I won't hold my breath until the cameras are actually roling, but it would be interesting to see how that develops.

It'll probably end up being about Kirk's and Spock's grandfathers!

 

[Lord Garth]

But they designed it that way!

It could have been Strange New Worlds set on the USS Potemkin and have a whole new cast, but the whole premise is that it's a TOS prequel.

I agree.

Yes, they chose to do a show that was a sequel to TNG.

Again, I mostly liked the show and it was a no-brainer to get Patrick Stewart back if he was interested, but it's a conscious choice to make a TNG sequel.

I agree.

Disco pushed the Spock/Enterprise panic button at the first opportunity.

Sadly, I agree. I would've ended DSC Season 1 with the Deleted Scene of Georgiou being recruited into Section 31. Much cooler scene, IMO. But that's just me.

These are the shows the metrics say the fans want. They need to get subscribers and existing characters are the best way to do it. It's the same across genre shows and films. It's why Ewan McGregor is back as Obi-Wan Kenobi, and why Robert Downey Jr is returning to Marvel.

Pretty much. They'll do what they do, but I'll only watch what I'm interested in. As soon as I stop being interested in a show, I'm out. It's only happened four times now with me for Star Trek.

 

[JamesRye]

That's been true since TNG was announced. "No Kirk, no Spock no Trek!"


Bull. Worf talked openly about killing people all the time and often recommended it, sometimes with gusto.



I trust Picard Season 3 was deeply disappointing then because that end battle was The Enterprise D doing its best Millennium Falcon through the Death Star impression.

1. People came around to loving TNG, DS9 and VOY (eventally). ENT, not so much.
2. Worf was a non-human character. Aliens were allowed foibles Humanity was supposedly more evolved.
3. I liked Picard season 3 well enough. The moment you refer to wasn't great IMHO. But everyone copies that moment, even non-SF shows!

 

[JamesRye]

Here's a fun though experiment. Take a great moment from any of the famous episodes and imagine the current crop of writers doing the script.

Example:
I rewatched Yesterday’s Enterprise this afternoon. Imagine if the current writing staff did the dialog for when Rachel Garret soberly tells Picard she's going to go back in time on a suicide mission.

“We going back into the fight Picard, cos Imma bad bitch and I’m gonna tear the Romulans a new one”

 

[Lord Garth]

Here's a fun though experiment. Take a great moment from any of the famous episodes and imagine the current crop of writers doing the script.

Example:
I rewatched Yesterday’s Enterprise this afternoon. Imagine if the current writing staff did the dialog for when Rachel Garret soberly tells Picard she's going to go back in time on a suicide mission.

“We going back into the fight Picard, cos Imma bad bitch and I’m gonna tear the Romulans a new one”

Great idea, but three days too early. After I watch Section 31, I'll let you know what I think Garret would say.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Agreed.

However, if there is one thing we learned from the Berman era, is is that you don't want to overstay your welcome. I think ten years is just about right that, even if the franchise is successful, it's time to hand the reigns over to another person. Imagine if Berman had stepped away around 1997, right after the success of First Contact. He would have left at the height of his era's popularity and we could have perhaps avoided the stagnation that followed in his later years.

I don't think you can compare Kurtzman to Berman. Berman was well known as a control freak where as Kurtzman lets his showrunners just do their thing. Kurtzman is the reason that modern Trek series are so different from one another. Berman just wanted more of the same bullshit because it was safe and profitable.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

“We going back into the fight Picard, cos Imma bad bitch and I’m gonna tear the Romulans a new one”

Have you actually watched any of the new series or are you just basing your views on angry reddit comments?

 

[fireproof78]

1. People came around to loving TNG, DS9 and VOY (eventally). ENT, not so much.
2. Worf was a non-human character. Aliens were allowed foibles Humanity was supposedly more evolved.
3. I liked Picard season 3 well enough. The moment you refer to wasn't great IMHO. But everyone copies that moment, even non-SF shows!

1. That's not the point. People reject things for poor reasons. And ENT now has its defenders despite loads of absolutely abysmal writing.
2. That's why I prefer TOS. Humanity was not evolved and not expected to be. Given I can read Shakespeare or Mark Antony and still identify with the emotions expressed I don't see humanity evolving as far as the insensitive ways TNG out forward at times. Also, to your point, the person who expressed "Yum, yum" was also an alien.
3. Still an example of something supposedly popular in Trek yet ripping off Star Wars. It's also more action oriented as a whole season, yet acceptable. It strikes me as a double standard.

 

[HotRod]

1. People came around to loving TNG, DS9 and VOY (eventally). ENT, not so much.

Enterprise has greatly gained in popularity.

2. Worf was a non-human character. Aliens were allowed foibles Humanity was supposedly more evolved.

Moving the goal post while pointing out the weakest aspect of "Berman Trek."

Here's a fun though experiment. Take a great moment from any of the famous episodes and imagine the current crop of writers doing the script.

Ok, and? Have you actually watched anything new besides Season 3 of Picard? Modern Trek has writers that are just as good as those from the past. One need only look at episodes like Under the Cloak of War, Ad Astra per Aspera, Lift Us Where Suffering Cannot Reach, etc.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

That's why I prefer TOS. Humanity was not evolved and not expected to be. Given I can read Shakespeare or Mark Antony and still identify with the emotions expressed I don't see humanity evolving as far as the insensitive ways TNG out forward at times. Also, to your point, the person who expressed "Yum, yum" was also an alien.

I agree with you 100%, humanity hasn't really evolved; it's just a facade due to living in a comfortable society w/ nice socio-economic conditions where people are mostly satisfied & not worried about their future / materialism, etc.

That's why everybody in the core worlds of the UFP are super nice.

Picard was just "Full of Arrogance" in thinking that humanity has really evolved.

Yet Lily Sloane showed him how he's not really all that different or evolved in ST: First Contact compared to humanity of her era.

Same with Quark's view on Humanity. It's due to Environmental Conditions of most humans, not because we're evolved.

 

[Danja]

Picard was just "Full of Arrogance" in thinking that humanity has really evolved.

Yet Lily Sloane showed him how he's not really all that different or evolved in ST: First Contact compared to humanity of her era.

I'm glad that Picard (the show) took him down a few notches.