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Why the hate for Alex Kurtzman?

I'll echo the previous sentiments that as the guy in charge, Kurtzman has become the natural target of fandom's hatred. It's noting new, within Star Trek we've seen it with Berman and Braga (despite the fact Braga wasn't actually in charge of the franchise) and with Abrams and Orci. Outside of Star Trek, there's Kathleen Kennedy being vilified by Star Wars fans, Doctor Who fans loathe Russell T Davies, Steven Moffat and Chris Chibnall during their terms as showrunner and even Walking Dead fandom has been known to say some unkind things about Scott Gimple. The only real unique thing with Kurtzman is for some reason yahoos on YouTube or some other social media outlet are reporting that he's been fired every few months which I think only proves Trek fandom is populated by a bit too many attention seeking blowhards more than it says anything about Kurtzman.
The writing was simply bad. They should’ve used them as periodic flashbacks, the quality of the writing wouldn’t have stuck out as badly.
Wasn't that originally the plan? To piece out bits of The battle of the Binary Stars throughout the season? I think you're right in that it would have improved the first season by a fair bit.
I recall hearing somewhere that that was the original plan. That we'd start with what became the third episode and throughout the first season we'd find out what it was that landed Michael in the clink and out of Starfleet.
That was indeed the plan. Problem was when they began editing the episodes together, they found the flashbacks were disrupting the narrative flow of the episodes, and then someone mandated the Harry Mudd Groundhog Day episode had to be as standalone as possible, meaning they couldn't include flashbacks in that one. Finally, upon realizing they had enough flashback content to fill two episodes, the decision was made to make the Shenzhou subplot into two episodes, and use them as the show's pilot episode.
 
I still think Discovery’s biggest mistake was with the first two episodes.
I think those first two episodes make some really bad choices that left the show doing damage control trying to course correct after the backlash, and it put a bad first impression that set the tone for the criticisms against the series. And what made it worse is that CBS rolled out the red carpet for the show, and premiered the pilot on over-the-air CBS Network in prime-time to give the series a boost.
  • I still hold to the belief that if the suits at CBS/Paramount thought Bryan Fuller's vision wasn't working they should have scrapped the whole thing and went back to the drawing board. Instead, they tried to use elements of his ideas and it becomes a muddled collaboration.
  • The show should have never been set in the 23rd century. It would have made much more sense for it to be post-Voyager in the 25th century, and the aesthetic of everything should have been closer to an extension of the TNG era. At the very least, that would have allowed synergy with Picard and had a forward momentum to Star Trek, instead of trying to wedge it in-between TOS' The Cage and Where No Man Has Gone Before.
  • The antagonists should have NOT been the Klingons. Create a new race and don't try to redo the Klingons into something that stands out so badly it becomes a distraction when people collectively say: "Those are Klingons?"
  • There are some great ideas in the first season which I think would have made for amazing stories. I like the idea of a culture that gets lured in by a zealot preaching "Make the Empire Great Again." The destructiveness of the concept of cultural purity, both on the grand and personal scales, and how that filters down into the way Voq is treated because he's an albino. On the other side, staying true to Federation values when those values are rebuked as a lie by an enemy. Do you still keep faith in peaceful coexistence, or is there a point where wholesale destruction of an implacable enemy becomes an ethical option? The problem with all of that was that no one bought them as Klingons. So all of the conflicts and drama gets drowned out by people not buying them as Klingons.
  • Michael's story should have been her own. It should have been a story of a woman who grew up in a society that claims to have solved all of humanity's worst sins, who has experienced tragedy and doesn't feel exactly connected to that society or totally believe in its virtues. I thought they could have done that without wedging Spock and Sarek into that backstory, and I think it would have worked better if she wasn't Sarek's adopted daughter.
  • Killing Captain Georgiou was a mistake. This is my biggest regret from those two episodes. They should have kept Michelle Yeoh as the captain, and instead of a mutiny from Michael, let Georgiou's course of action at the Battle of the Binary Stars be a controversial decision that causes doubts and conflict with Michael. That should have been the major tension of the first season. Whether Michael, as Georgiou's first officer, stays loyal to Georgiou's values, or is seduced by someone like Lorca who advocates a more aggressive course of action. And let that play out as a reasoned, thoughtful debate on what a quasi-utopian society should do when faced with a threat.
  • Make the Spore Drive weird. Make it something that works if it's needed, but has serious consequences. Maybe travel causes odd perceptions of reality and time that come close to breaking people's minds. Maybe some people disappear in jumps. Maybe it works but some crew member has some form of body horror at the destination. Make the Spore Drive dangerous, but a tool that is there if things are absolutely necessary.
  • Last one is a personal preference, but I always liked Georgiou's Walker Class ship better than Discovery, and wished the Walker Class was used as the Discovery hero ship. To me, it looks better, and I always loved the underslung bridge.
 
In my humble opinion, It would have been a much better play to start to show off with Context is For Kings, one of the strongest episodes of the entire show, and intersperse the events of the first two episodes throughout the first part of the season as flashbacks. If they ended the flashbacks just before the Mirror Georgiou reveal, then we could have had Michelle Yeoh in every episode.

That said, that opening scene of The Vulcan Hello, with that comment about 7 years serving together, made me feel like we were at the end of a Star Trek show that I really wanted to see, rather than at the beginning of a new one.
 
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I don't think Trek ever will the same way as when I was younger. I don't think I'll hold it against Trek though.

No,it won't. Same here - why? Because we all get older, wiser (or stupider, in my case) with the years, we spend on this rotational ellipsoid, that we call "Earth". My first episode, that I watched, without context or so, was "Shore Leave", I was roughly 7 and it was airing on Sat 1. And it was quite a fascinating episode. But my first episode, to really continue to watch Star Trek, was TNGs "best of both worlds, part one". And then I was hooked, watching the next episode and I remember, that I went that years Fasching as a Borg.

And now? I'm older, and even if I'd rewatch "Best of Both Worlds, part one" - I feel nostalgia, sure, but it's not the same way, as I watched the show, when I was younger.

That said, that opening scene of The Vulcan Hello, with that comment about 7 years serving together, made me feel like we were at the end of a Star Trek show that I really wanted to see, rather than at the beginning of a new one.
While we didn't need a Star Trek show, that was setting up "Discovery", I concur, that I'd be interested in watching the Adventures of Captain Phillippa.
 
Citiprime said:
The antagonists should have NOT been the Klingons. Create a new race and don't try to redo the Klingons into something that stands out so badly it becomes a distraction when people collectively say: "Those are Klingons?"
Not giving a shit is their superpower.
 
  • I still hold to the belief that if the suits at CBS/Paramount thought Bryan Fuller's vision wasn't working they should have scrapped the whole thing and went back to the drawing board. Instead, they tried to use elements of his ideas and it becomes a muddled collaboration.

Hm, actually there is nothing wrong with keeping some of the ideas and elements. The whole "The XO is the actual star of the show" is definitely something, that I'd put in the "Win"-Coloumn.

  • The show should have never been set in the 23rd century. It would have made much more sense for it to be post-Voyager in the 25th century, and the aesthetic of everything should have been closer to an extension of the TNG era. At the very least, that would have allowed synergy with Picard and had a forward momentum to Star Trek, instead of trying to wedge it in-between TOS' The Cage and Where No Man Has Gone Before.

Okay, that show us, what you would've liked to see, and yes, the idea of progressing is quite fascinating. However there is an era between Enterprise and Kirk and I think, one should not say "no, we don't want that" to this idea.

  • The antagonists should have NOT been the Klingons. Create a new race and don't try to redo the Klingons into something that stands out so badly it becomes a distraction when people collectively say: "Those are Klingons?"

Why not Klingons? I mean, if you ask Krethi and Pleti on the street "Who are the most known Star Trek aliens?" They'll probably say Borg, Klingons or Romulans. And if one has such a recognized name, why not banking on it. Concerning the "strange looks" - that's something, that didn't irritate me the slightest. Yeah, they're Klingons, okay, they look like that, it's fine. Honestly, I never understood this whole "Mimimi, they're looking like orcs now"-drama.

  • There are some great ideas in the first season which I think would have made for amazing stories. I like the idea of a culture that gets lured in by a zealot preaching "Make the Empire Great Again." The destructiveness of the concept of cultural purity, both on the grand and personal scales, and how that filters down into the way Voq is treated because he's an albino. On the other side, staying true to Federation values when those values are rebuked as a lie by an enemy. Do you still keep faith in peaceful coexistence, or is there a point where wholesale destruction of an implacable enemy becomes an ethical option? The problem with all of that was that no one bought them as Klingons. So all of the conflicts and drama gets drowned out by people not buying them as Klingons.

Again: this whole "They're looking like orcs"-'argument' is.. null and void.

  • Michael's story should have been her own. It should have been a story of a woman who grew up in a society that claims to have solved all of humanity's worst sins, who has experienced tragedy and doesn't feel exactly connected to that society or totally believe in its virtues. I thought they could have done that without wedging Spock and Sarek into that backstory, and I think it would have worked better if she wasn't Sarek's adopted daughter.

Again: if you're asking people "Name me a Star Trek Character", most of the time, the names Kirk, Spock and McCoy will be brought up. I have nothing against Michael being an adoptive daughter to Sarek, the only question I have is: Why is a woman named Michael? And that's nothing, that Sarek decided, because he didn't know better. Her parents were there to give the kid a name and they decided "Michael is a good choice". So, give us the reasons. But the other thing, that she's an adoptive daughter to Spock, that he never talked about her... meh. He didn't talk much about Sybok, either.

  • Killing Captain Georgiou was a mistake. This is my biggest regret from those two episodes. They should have kept Michelle Yeoh as the captain, and instead of a mutiny from Michael, let Georgiou's course of action at the Battle of the Binary Stars be a controversial decision that causes doubts and conflict with Michael. That should have been the major tension of the first season. Whether Michael, as Georgiou's first officer, stays loyal to Georgiou's values, or is seduced by someone like Lorca who advocates a more aggressive course of action. And let that play out as a reasoned, thoughtful debate on what a quasi-utopian society should do when faced with a threat.
Yup, that's where I concur. Captain Georgiou was killed off too early.

  • Make the Spore Drive weird. Make it something that works if it's needed, but has serious consequences. Maybe travel causes odd perceptions of reality and time that come close to breaking people's minds. Maybe some people disappear in jumps. Maybe it works but some crew member has some form of body horror at the destination. Make the Spore Drive dangerous, but a tool that is there if things are absolutely necessary.

Isn't the Spore Drive weird in the first two seasons? Isn't it dangerous? Doesn't Stamets collapse, lapsing into a coma?

  • Last one is a personal preference, but I always liked Georgiou's Walker Class ship better than Discovery, and wished the Walker Class was used as the Discovery hero ship. To me, it looks better, and I always loved the underslung bridge.
Actually, all of your points are personal preferences - however I have the feeling, that the walker-class was something they came up, as lots of self-proclaimed "Trekkies" were bitching and moaning, that the Discovery would look too much like the Enterprise from Phase two and even there, I have to say "Yeah, so what? I mean, it's good, that we see that ship in action."
And concerning the "Walker-Class" - the only thing, I liked better with this ships design, was the Bridge, that it was under the ship.
 
Why not Klingons?
The reaction to the Discovery Klingons answers that question.

1. The audience, by-and-large, didn't accept them as Klingons
2. It was a distraction to the story they were trying to tell.
3. And the confirmation of the reaction from fans being so overwhelmingly negative was the producers scurrying to start correcting the Klingon appearance in season 2.

I'd like to point out a paradoxical argument that always occurs in these discussions.

People who had problems with some of these choices, or would prefer a version of Star Trek more in the manner of previous Treks, are usually told: "Well, Star Trek has to grow, it has to change and evolve to get new fans and viewers."

But then when you say, if you want to do these sort of ideas and try this direction, create a new species and do something new instead of using the Klingons, Breen, or Gorn, then the same people fight tooth and nail to justify reimagining the old stuff.
 
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The reaction to the Discovery Klingons answers that question.

1. The audience, by-and-large, didn't accept them as Klingons
2. It was a distraction to the story they were trying to tell.
3. And the confirmation of the reaction from fans being so overwhelmingly negative was the producers scurrying to start correcting the Klingon appearance it in season 2.

I'd like to point out a paradoxical argument that always occurs in these discussions.

People who had problems with some of these choices, or would prefer a version of Star Trek more in the manner of previous Treks, are usually told: "Well, Star Trek has to grow, it has to change and evolve to get new fans and viewers."

But then when you say, if you want to do these sort of ideas and try this direction, create a new species and do something new instead of using the Klingons, Breen, or Gorn, then the same people fight tooth and nail to justify reimagining the old stuff.
Here's my view: whatever you do with your story commit to it.

That the production team backpedaled irks me to know end. Shows a lack of commitment to their story they want to tell.

If they are Klingons then keep going and work with it. Or do a new alien.

But commit.
 
That the production team backpedaled irks me to know end. Shows a lack of commitment to their story they want to tell.

The possibility exists that CBS told them to roll back the changes after seeing fan reaction.

Always tough to know who to blame for these things.
 
The possibility exists that CBS told them to roll back the changes after seeing fan reaction.

Always tough to know who to blame for these things.
In this case, yes. It's not clear cut, but the 32nd century was a reaction too.

I like Discovery, more than many I see post about it. But the lack of commitment to a story stands out to me.

But, same with Picard. It's not artistic storytelling but reactive storytelling.
 
Here's my view: whatever you do with your story commit to it.

That the production team backpedaled irks me to know end. Shows a lack of commitment to their story they want to tell.

If they are Klingons then keep going and work with it. Or do a new alien.

But commit.
My respect for them declined pandering to the loudest voices in fandom. I cringed at the line with Pike talking about getting rid of the holotech from the Enterprise, just because some basement still living with mummy fans got freaked out by it.
 
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The fact that it all seems so blown out of proportion is due to social media and YouTube, etc.

Hate/Vitriol = Clicks = $$$$$

The antagonists should have NOT been the Klingons. Create a new race and don't try to redo the Klingons into something that stands out so badly it becomes a distraction when people collectively say: "Those are Klingons?"

The Klingons have been altered several times since TOS. What's one more?
 
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