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Why the hate for Alex Kurtzman?

Nah. Why would one be more over the line than the other?
Because with singing, you can at least tell some kind of story. (Even though it's repetitive... breaking into a 5 minute song that says the same thing over and over again instead of a 1 or 2 minute conversation that isn't reptitive.) With dance routines, what the hell story is even being told?

"Subspace Rhapsody" is one of the only episodes in the franchise where I kept looking at the remaining time just because I wanted it to be over soon.
 
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Oh, dear. I have spotted a canon violation. Please inform the management and cancel my season tickets.
 
Is this a serious question?
Yes, actually. I'm not trying to watch some interpretive dance thing. I've never been one for that stuff.

Like I said before, I hate musicals. It has never been nor will it ever be a thing I enjoy. They're tedious.

Obviously, some people like musicals. Great for you. And you got a musical episode in the franchise. Super.

I just don't get anything out of it. Except time wasted.
 
Yes, actually. I'm not trying to watch some interpretive dance thing. I've never been one for that stuff.

Like I said before, I hate musicals. It has never been nor will it ever be a thing I enjoy. They're tedious.

Obviously, some people like musicals. Great for you. And you got a musical episode in the franchise. Super.

I just don't get anything out of it. Except time wasted.
Well that's fine. But are you seriously questioning the use of dance as a means of storytelling? Dance is pretty old, perhaps even predating verbal storytelling.
 
Yes, actually. I'm not trying to watch some interpretive dance thing. I've never been one for that stuff.

Like I said before, I hate musicals. It has never been nor will it ever be a thing I enjoy. They're tedious.

Obviously, some people like musicals. Great for you. And you got a musical episode in the franchise. Super.

I just don't get anything out of it. Except time wasted.
Okay, so all that means is that the episode didn’t work for you. It doesn’t mean it’s any less valid of a vehicle for the franchise to tell stories with.

This is a you problem, not the show’s problem.
 
Trek was meant to be a Wagon Train to the Stars very highbrow. Right?
Who said anything has to be "highbrow" in order to be written where the story doesn't come off as dumb or detaches a portion of its audience from the reality of its setting?

Star Trek wasn't highbrow. Neither was The Twilight Zone. Or was a whole lot of Disney "cartoons." But all of them have produced work which examined complicated topics in intelligent ways that connected with an audience beyond just spectacle.

Also, what is the argument here? Well TOS wasn't considered elite writing during its day so why can't we fans not point out when Kurtzman-Trek is dumb too?
Well, not a wagon train, literally the show Wagon Train, only in SPAAAAACE! Neither it nor Star Trek was highbrow. No one is gonna mistake it for Opera or Ballet. :p
I forget ... Which show had to redo their original pilot because the network thought it was "too cerebral" and not what they ordered? Because when I watch "The Cage" the first thing that comes to mind is Wagon Train, right?
 
Well that's fine. But are you seriously questioning the use of dance as a means of storytelling? Dance is pretty old, perhaps even predating verbal storytelling.

Never said it was not used as a storytelling device. It just doesn't really tell me anything.


Okay, so all that means is that the episode didn’t work for you. It doesn’t mean it’s any less valid of a vehicle for the franchise to tell stories with.

This is a you problem, not the show’s problem.

And I didn't say SNW was a problem. The episode was. For me. And I have already said before at different times, I am aware that my dislike of musicals colors my view of the episode. Just as how some people don't like horror will not like horror centered episodes.

My opinion is that the musical, as it was, was just going too far to try to suspend my disbelief, made even impossible with the dance numbers.

My opinion of it is no less valid than yours about it being good.
 
Who said anything has to be "highbrow" in order to be written where the story doesn't come off as dumb or detaches a portion of its audience from the reality of its setting?

Star Trek wasn't highbrow. Neither was The Twilight Zone. Or was a whole lot of Disney "cartoons." But all of them have produced work which examined complicated topics in intelligent ways that connected with an audience beyond just spectacle.

Also, what is the argument here? Well TOS wasn't considered elite writing during its day so why can't we fans not point out when Kurtzman-Trek is dumb too?

I forget ... Which show had to redo their original pilot because the network thought it was "too cerebral" and not what they ordered? Because when I watch "The Cage" the first thing that comes to mind is Wagon Train, right?
The whole "not for the masses" argument.

Yeah, Trek tackles complicated issues. It's part of what it is. And it still does.

No, the argument is that Trek was dumbed down. But the only evidence presented is the phasers go pew pew like Star Wars and not Peeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew, like in older Trek. Yeah Trek can be dumb, but is current Trek "dumber" than previous Trek?

You do realize that the "cerebral" thing was mostly spin by GR. It made for a good convention story. The main objections were about casting (like the mistress of the Producer in a leading role) . They also might have been a little uncomfortable with Orion Slave woman. "The Cage" wasn't exactly pushing too many cerebral boundaries. Most of it's tropes were well trod, even in 1964.
 
Also, what is the argument here? Well TOS wasn't considered elite writing during its day so why can't we fans not point out when Kurtzman-Trek is dumb too?
Because it's used as a catch all against Kurtzman as a person, justifying hatred and declaring it "not Trek."

No, it's just an installment people didn't like.

What it isn't?

Dumbing down.

Ruining.

Destroying.

Making Star Trek lesser.
 
Are you serious right now? I can easily point out two dozen episodes from the Berman era I've done that with, but you know how many times I've done that during SNW? Absolutely none at all.
I'm quite serious. But as I have already pointed out, I don't like musicals at all, so I'm obviously going to be counting down the time until it's over. Musicals are just tedious and do nothing for me.

I love SNW. Just not "Subspace Rhapsody". Just like how I love DS9, but there are several episodes I don't like at all.

How is that difficult to grasp?
 
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I'm quite serious. But as I have already pointed out, I don't like musicals at all, so I'm obviously going to be counting down the time until it's over. Musicals are just tedious and do nothing for me.

I love SNW. Just not "Subspace Rhapsody". Just like how I love DS9, but there are several episodes I don't like at all.

How is that difficult to grasp?
It's more the claim of "one of the only episodes" where you watch the timer to see how much is left, which implies there's very few episodes you've done that with. I mean, come on, Star Trek is a franchise with close to a thousand episodes, there's got to be plenty of episodes you've done that with. I mean, some of TOS's biggest fans will admit there's only about 37% that's good, and I'm reasonably certain that ratio is accurate to the Berman era shows as well. Hell, I maybe even so bold as to claim only 37% of the entire Trek franchise is any good. I've watched the timer countdown on a good many Trek episodes in my day, let's not act like this is a rare thing at all.
 
The whole "not for the masses" argument.

Yeah, Trek tackles complicated issues. It's part of what it is. And it still does.

No, the argument is that Trek was dumbed down. But the only evidence presented is the phasers go pew pew like Star Wars and not Peeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew, like in older Trek. Yeah Trek can be dumb, but is current Trek "dumber" than previous Trek?

You do realize that the "cerebral" thing was mostly spin by GR. It made for a good convention story. The main objections were about casting (like the mistress of the Producer in a leading role) . They also might have been a little uncomfortable with Orion Slave woman. "The Cage" wasn't exactly pushing too many cerebral boundaries. Most of it's tropes were well trod, even in 1964.

No thats one of the things they told Gene. They wanted more action. The story was cerebral. So Gene upped the action for Where No Man.has Gone Before and at the same time kept it very thought provoking. The battle between Kirk and God Mitchell is one of the best confrontations in all of star trek. We get great dialogue before the action and after. Its still one of the top 10 confrontations today on all trek. Nothing kurtzman has done even comes close to that episode.
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It's more the claim of "one of the only episodes" where you watch the timer to see how much is left, which implies there's very few episodes you've done that with. I mean, come on, Star Trek is a franchise with close to a thousand episodes, there's got to be plenty of episodes you've done that with. I mean, some of TOS's biggest fans will admit there's only about 37% that's good, and I'm reasonably certain that ratio is accurate to the Berman era shows as well. Hell, I maybe even so bold as to claim only 37% of the entire Trek franchise is any good. I've watched the timer countdown on a good many Trek episodes in my day, let's not act like this is a rare thing at all.
It's not a claim, it's a fucking fact. Do you know why? Because just looking at the timer of something I am watching is NOT typical of what I do, even with episodes I don't like. Because I can usually find something positive or that I like about them. As proof, look at how often I've defended aspects of episodes that are NOT good.

Just because YOU keep looking at the timer doesn't mean everyone else does it.

I don't go off questioning what you say, do I? How about giving me the same fucking courtesy?
 
No thats one of the things they told Gene. They wanted more action. The story was cetebral. So Gene upped the action foo Where No Man.has Gone Before and at the same time kept it very thought provoking. The battle between Kirk and God Mitchell is one of the best confrontations in all of star trek. We get great dialogue before the action and after. Its still one of the top 10 confrontations today on all trek. Nothing kurtzman has done even comes close to that episode.
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Nope. Gene spin. The action in WNMHGB is about the same as The Cage.
 
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