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Why so much negativity about the RTD?

(And honestly, "Blink" wasn't nearly as good as "Silence in the Library"/"Forest of the Dead," nor "The Eleventh Hour," nor "The Beast Below," nor "The Time of Angels"/"Flesh and Blood," nor "The Pandorica Opens"/"The Big Bang," nor "A Christmas Carol.")

Really? The others are debatable to some extent or the other (personally I'd go with The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances), but I though TBB was a terrrible episode. The only thing I really liked about it was the doctors anger at the end of the episode.

As to the topic at hand, personally I feel RTD had a way of writing fantastic stories with terrible endings - his season finales showcase him at his best and worst, IE Journey's End:

Davros: The man who abhors violence, never carrying a gun, but this is the truth, Doctor: you take ordinary people and you fashion them into weapons... behold your Children of Time, transformed into murderers. I made the Daleks, Doctor, you made this.
The Doctor: I'm trying to help.
Davros: Already I have seen them sacrificed today, for their beloved Doctor. The Earth woman who fell opening the Sub Wave Network.
The Doctor: Who was that?
Rose Tyler: Harriet Jones. She gave her life to get you here.
Davros: How many more? Just think, how many have died in your name?
Davros: The Doctor, the man who keeps running, never looking back because he dare not, out of shame. This is my final victory, Doctor. I have shown you yourself.
^ was brilliant dialogue. Davros meeting Sarah Jane Smith again was also brilliantly done.

And him at his worst of course would be pretty much everything in JE after metacrisis. Not the best writer, but by no means did he do a bad job. I think the negativity comes from endings being his weakness - it leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
 
I just didn't like RTD's style. He reminded me of JNT given a far larger budget. Shoddy scripting, style over substance.... just...yeesh.

I thank him for bringing the show back but he perhaps needed to leave after the third season. By then, his plotting which had never been good to begin with, just unraveled.
 
(And honestly, "Blink" wasn't nearly as good as "Silence in the Library"/"Forest of the Dead," nor "The Eleventh Hour," nor "The Beast Below," nor "The Time of Angels"/"Flesh and Blood," nor "The Pandorica Opens"/"The Big Bang," nor "A Christmas Carol.")

Really? The others are debatable to some extent or the other (personally I'd go with The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances), but I though TBB was a terrrible episode. The only thing I really liked about it was the doctors anger at the end of the episode.

As to the topic at hand, personally I feel RTD had a way of writing fantastic stories with terrible endings - his season finales showcase him at his best and worst, IE Journey's End:

Davros: The man who abhors violence, never carrying a gun, but this is the truth, Doctor: you take ordinary people and you fashion them into weapons... behold your Children of Time, transformed into murderers. I made the Daleks, Doctor, you made this.
The Doctor: I'm trying to help.
Davros: Already I have seen them sacrificed today, for their beloved Doctor. The Earth woman who fell opening the Sub Wave Network.
The Doctor: Who was that?
Rose Tyler: Harriet Jones. She gave her life to get you here.
Davros: How many more? Just think, how many have died in your name?
Davros: The Doctor, the man who keeps running, never looking back because he dare not, out of shame. This is my final victory, Doctor. I have shown you yourself.
^ was brilliant dialogue. Davros meeting Sarah Jane Smith again was also brilliantly done.

And him at his worst of course would be pretty much everything in JE after metacrisis. Not the best writer, but by no means did he do a bad job. I think the negativity comes from endings being his weakness - it leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
I was hoping Donna would just smack the Doctor for taking life lessons from the genocidal maniac creator of the Daleks and his lunatic squid.
 
(And honestly, "Blink" wasn't nearly as good as "Silence in the Library"/"Forest of the Dead," nor "The Eleventh Hour," nor "The Beast Below," nor "The Time of Angels"/"Flesh and Blood," nor "The Pandorica Opens"/"The Big Bang," nor "A Christmas Carol.")

Really? The others are debatable to some extent or the other (personally I'd go with The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances), but I though TBB was a terrrible episode. The only thing I really liked about it was the doctors anger at the end of the episode.

As to the topic at hand, personally I feel RTD had a way of writing fantastic stories with terrible endings - his season finales showcase him at his best and worst, IE Journey's End:

Davros: The man who abhors violence, never carrying a gun, but this is the truth, Doctor: you take ordinary people and you fashion them into weapons... behold your Children of Time, transformed into murderers. I made the Daleks, Doctor, you made this.
The Doctor: I'm trying to help.
Davros: Already I have seen them sacrificed today, for their beloved Doctor. The Earth woman who fell opening the Sub Wave Network.
The Doctor: Who was that?
Rose Tyler: Harriet Jones. She gave her life to get you here.
Davros: How many more? Just think, how many have died in your name?
Davros: The Doctor, the man who keeps running, never looking back because he dare not, out of shame. This is my final victory, Doctor. I have shown you yourself.
^ was brilliant dialogue. Davros meeting Sarah Jane Smith again was also brilliantly done.

And him at his worst of course would be pretty much everything in JE after metacrisis. Not the best writer, but by no means did he do a bad job. I think the negativity comes from endings being his weakness - it leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
I was hoping Donna would just smack the Doctor for taking life lessons from the genocidal maniac creator of the Daleks and his lunatic squid.

I just watched "Journey's End" today and it amazed me how much Davros got to The Doctor. Yes, the Doctor has directly or inadvertently caused good people to die but Davros is a psychopath who kills people because he is off the rails insane. If I were The Doctor, he is the last person I would be letting get me on a guilt trip.
 
I suspect killing neigh-on your entire race gives you a somewhat different perspective on things to begin with. Especially when you're still playing with all your marbles.
 
I suspect killing neigh-on your entire race gives you a somewhat different perspective on things to begin with. Especially when you're still playing with all your marbles.

In The Doctors defense, The Time Lord's were about to wipe out the entire universe so they could ascend and escape the effects of "the moment". The Doctor did what he had to do to save the universe, Davros was just killing for the sake of killing.
 
Not saying he didn't have reason to do what he did, but the weight it would put on his conscience would naturally leave him a lot more receptive to the kind of accusations Davros was swinging around.

Added to the fact that Davros already has an excuse - he's insane. And there's enough truth in what he said to make the exchange work perfectly, which is what made it my favourite bit of the season. His companions were so proud of their doctor-style ingenuity, and the doctor & davros were the only ones who noticed all their tricks being played out would involve huge amounts of people/daleks dying.
 
Not saying he didn't have reason to do what he did, but the weight it would put on his conscience would naturally leave him a lot more receptive to the kind of accusations Davros was swinging around.

Added to the fact that Davros already has an excuse - he's insane. And there's enough truth in what he said to make the exchange work perfectly, which is what made it my favourite bit of the season. His companions were so proud of their doctor-style ingenuity, and the doctor & davros were the only ones who noticed all their tricks being played out would involve huge amounts of people/daleks dying.

It's definitely a great scene in the history of Doctor Who but I have to wonder which fans actually think Davros had a point:devil:
 
Not saying he didn't have reason to do what he did, but the weight it would put on his conscience would naturally leave him a lot more receptive to the kind of accusations Davros was swinging around.

Added to the fact that Davros already has an excuse - he's insane. And there's enough truth in what he said to make the exchange work perfectly, which is what made it my favourite bit of the season. His companions were so proud of their doctor-style ingenuity, and the doctor & davros were the only ones who noticed all their tricks being played out would involve huge amounts of people/daleks dying.

It's definitely a great scene in the history of Doctor Who but I have to wonder which fans actually think Davros had a point:devil:
It's that the lines are coming from Davros that I can't take it seriously. It would be a great moral quandry coming from the Master as he goes about his plans, but from Davros it's just laughable. I wished Sarah had said 'I told you so, the first time' Then the Doctor can just shrug and say he's sorry.
 
Not saying he didn't have reason to do what he did, but the weight it would put on his conscience would naturally leave him a lot more receptive to the kind of accusations Davros was swinging around.

Added to the fact that Davros already has an excuse - he's insane. And there's enough truth in what he said to make the exchange work perfectly, which is what made it my favourite bit of the season. His companions were so proud of their doctor-style ingenuity, and the doctor & davros were the only ones who noticed all their tricks being played out would involve huge amounts of people/daleks dying.

It's definitely a great scene in the history of Doctor Who but I have to wonder which fans actually think Davros had a point:devil:
It's that the lines are coming from Davros that I can't take it seriously. It would be a great moral quandry coming from the Master as he goes about his plans, but from Davros it's just laughable. I wished Sarah had said 'I told you so, the first time' Then the Doctor can just shrug and say he's sorry.

Or The Doctor could just say "Whoops, my bad"
 
It's definitely a great scene in the history of Doctor Who but I have to wonder which fans actually think Davros had a point:devil:
It's that the lines are coming from Davros that I can't take it seriously. It would be a great moral quandry coming from the Master as he goes about his plans, but from Davros it's just laughable. I wished Sarah had said 'I told you so, the first time' Then the Doctor can just shrug and say he's sorry.

Or The Doctor could just say "Whoops, my bad"
Or Davros and the Doctor stare soulfully and filled with personal angst only to both break out laughing, the hatchet buried Davros joins the Doctor and company in the Tardis. Davros spends the rest of the episode showing off his new found sense of humor and complaining about the lack of wheel chair access in the Tardis.
 
How many races has the doctor wiped out or murdered??

the Racnoss
the Time Lords
the vampire fish of Venice
Helped blow up Mondas the home of the Cybermen. He destroyed all of the Wirren
The Vervoids
A side race of the Silurians
The Gelf
The Old Dalek Paradigm
The Entity known as house, arguably the last or only one of his kind
who else did he slaughter??
 
How many races has the doctor wiped out or murdered??

the Racnoss

Yes. The Doctor directly threw an explosive into a nest of hatching Racnoss.


the Time Lords

Yes. Although earlier it was ambiguous just what the Doctor had done. Later episodes embraced the simplicity of "The Doctor killed his entire race single-handedly in order to eliminate completely the Daleks and put an end to the Time War." But earlier episodes implied the Doctor's actions were more that he was in a position to end it, and although he tried all other options he made the choice to end the war. The Parting of the Ways heavily implied that the Doctor's battle against the Dalek Emperor was very similar to what happened to the Doctor in the Time War, with Earth standing in the place of Gallifrey. The End of Time suddenly introduced the idea that the Time Lords had snapped, and equally needed to be stopped. I prefer the earlier version.

Either way, yes, the Doctor took direct action.

the vampire fish of Venice

No. The Doctor stopped them from leveling Venice. He raised no hand against them, nor took a single one of their lives. The Doctor did not kill or even encourage others to kill the humans-turned-fish. Those deaths occurred completely independently of the Doctor. The Doctor also begged the Matriarch Fish-Lady not to kill herself. Presumably, the males still live in the depths of the waters of Venice, but cannot reproduce.

It is also very possible that their home world, and their lives, were restored when the cracks were fixed.

Either way, the Doctor acted to save Venice. He did kill them or their race.

Helped blow up Mondas the home of the Cybermen.

Again the Doctor didn't exactly seek out Mondas and blow it up. Mondas returned to Earth and invaded. The Doctor worked to defend Earth. Mondas exploded more from its own actions than by the Doctor's hand. It seems to be implied that Mondas would have been blown up with or without the Doctor.

He destroyed all of the Wirren

No idea who they are.

The Vervoids

Questionable. The Valeyard tampered with the Matrix and forged evidence. What really happened remains unclear.

A side race of the Silurians

The ones the Brig blew up? Where the Doctor admonished him for his disgusting actions?


The Doctor did not destroy the Gelf. He prevented their invasion. In all honesty, Gwyneth and Charles Dickens prevented their invasion. Now, the Gelf had become seperated from their bodies due to the Time War, but that hardly is the DOctor's single-handed doing. The Doctor tried to help them live on Earth, going against both Rose and Mr. Dickens in his desire to right a wrong of the Time War. The Gelf planned an invasion of force and genocide of the humans. The Doctor was pretty much defeated by them. Dickens saved the Doctor's life, and Gwen blew their portal up. The Gelf remained trapped on the otherside, disembodied.

The Doctor did not kill the Gelf.

The Old Dalek Paradigm

If you mean the Dalek race that, aside from the Emperor and the Cult of Skaro, was wiped out by the Doctor. Yep. He sure did.

The Entity known as house, arguably the last or only one of his kind

To imply that something must be so because there is no evidence that it is not so is a logical fallacy. Just because we don't know that there are other lifeforms such as House does not mean he was the last of his kind.

Also, the Doctor did not kill him, the TARDIS killed him when she was separated from the flesh body that House trapped her in.

The Doctor did give his approval due to House having tried to kill him and his companions many times, and due to House being guilty of the deaths of many others, some of whom were Time Lords that were not involved with the Time War.

who else did he slaughter??

I would not describe any of the above as the Doctor slaughtering anyone, aside possibly from the Daleks and his own people.

One thing that I hated (HATED) about the later years of the new series under RTD's guidance was that the Doctor was portrayed as being a bad person. His own doubts and fears about himself were read as being wholly accurate, and Davros's words were repeatedly shown to be more or less accurate.

I don't like when shows such as this, or any, inspect their central characters so much that they find them to be ultimate failures. The Doctor's character is, at its core, a character of pacifism and love. To hold decades of serialized adventures under the microscope and begin to imply that the Doctor is actually this callous being that slaughters innocents and gets innocents to slaughter is not something I agree with.

By the end of Tennant's run, the character of the Doctor was alone, self-hating, and in misery. That's not the tonal direction I feel is at the core of Doctor Who. As a result, I welcomed a change in show runner.

It is as if the old producers had grown weary of their own show. I liken this to the later years of Star Trek where some episodes showed the characters finding space travel and alien races boring, or making criticisms of the Federation. This more likely reflects the weary show runners and production team's feelings than the tonal core of the show. In other words: if you think space travel and science is boring, then maybe you shouldn't be writing Star Trek. If you think the Doctor is a cruel monster and not a force of good, then maybe...

I am not saying that depth and complexity to the Doctor is unwanted. I actually enjoyed the shades of grey drawn into the Doctor during the early episodes of Eccleston and Tennant (both talented actors with great episodes under their belt). I just felt that by the end of RTD's tenure, those shades of grey had turned black, and I personally disagreed with that interpretation of the character and the essence of the show.

Essentially, Intellect & Romnace vs. Brute Force & Cynicism. By the end, the show runners seemed to be cynical about the Doctor himself. In my humble opinion, anyway. Still love 99% of the reruns, still excited for this week's episode.
 
One thing that I hated (HATED) about the later years of the new series under RTD's guidance was that the Doctor was portrayed as being a bad person.

I don't think that's accurate, any more than criticisms that the Doctor was depicted as being a morally pure Jesus substitute are accurate.

It seems to me that RTD's point was not that the Doctor was a bad person, but that the Doctor is sometimes morally complex and questionable, and that some people will tend to perceive him as a bad person, or at least as someone who has victimized them. Mickey, for instance, in "Boom Town," certainly saw himself as having been victimized by the Doctor -- and while he wasn't exactly right, he wasn't exactly wrong, either.

The idea is that sometimes, an action isn't morally pure, but ambiguous.

By the end of Tennant's run, the character of the Doctor was alone, self-hating, and in misery.

No. He was not self-hating, nor even in true misery. He was in a point in his life where he had felt alone after the loss of Donna and of Rose (again) and his other companions' having moved on in their lives, and that made him emotionally vulnerable. And certainly he felt guilt for a long time after his brief dabble with megalomania in "The Waters of Mars." But re-connecting with Wilf helped the Doctor avoid feeling alone again, and saving both the Universe from the Time Lords (again), combined with saving Wilf, helped the Doctor finally forgive himself both for his actions at the end of the Time War (repeated again with his sending them back into the Time War to be killed by his earlier self) and for his actions in "The Waters of Mars." And as much as he was angry that he would have to allow his tenth self to die, he still did it, and was glad to have done it. That led him to reconnect with his prior companions, and, ultimately, to accept himself.

Now, certainly, the tone at the end was tragic. "I don't wanna go." But it wasn't self-hating tragedy. I mean, hell, the song playing throughout the whole thing translates as "Goodbye Ten." It was tragic, but it was tragedy marked by love and acceptance.

Essentially, Intellect & Romnace vs. Brute Force & Cynicism. By the end, the show runners seemed to be cynical about the Doctor himself.

I don't think it's so much that as that RTD recognized that even romantics and intellects can fall prey to brute force and cynicism, and will sometimes falter. That's okay as long as they recover -- which the Doctor did, ultimately by being willing to die to save a single person.
 
That's okay as long as they recover -- which the Doctor did, ultimately by being willing to die to save a single person.
He was hardly willing.

He was willing. No one forced him to save Wilf. He ranted and raved because he was angry and didn't want to, which is a perfectly natural reaction to realizing that you're doomed. But once he'd gotten that out of the way, he calmed down and re-affirmed that he cared more about Wilf than himself, and that while he didn't WANT to die to save Wilf, he was WILLING to.

"It would be my honor."
 
That's okay as long as they recover -- which the Doctor did, ultimately by being willing to die to save a single person.
He was hardly willing.

He was willing. No one forced him to save Wilf. He ranted and raved because he was angry and didn't want to, which is a perfectly natural reaction to realizing that you're doomed. But once he'd gotten that out of the way, he calmed down and re-affirmed that he cared more about Wilf than himself, and that while he didn't WANT to die to save Wilf, he was WILLING to.

"It would be my honor."

Him sacrificing himself to save Wilf was the Doctor, but his crying fit and, worse, line of "I don't want to go" went against what has been established in prior Who. Regeneration is not the death of a man and the birth of a another. It is a death of a man and the regeneration of that same man. His face is different, even his personality, because literally every cell in his body has been revived by being rewritten, but it is not a new person who goes swaggering off while the last one died.

We have had every single regeneration confirm this. Every single episode emphasizing it. Even David Tennant himself said, "Same man, new face."

Same man. New Face. "I don't want to go"? These two statements do not go together whatsoever. "I die and he swaggers off." No, that is not regeneration. The Doctor is the Doctor and he's the same man. The change more like how at 18 and at 40 you are a different person with different likes, tastes, aesthetics and even mannerisms, but you are still YOU.

When Tennant claimed that regeneration was like dying, and that each Doctor was like a brand new man, they broke a key aspect of Doctor Who for me. They said their Doctor stands alone, and is leaving against his will.

I would say that is my most hated moment of the entire new series. You know what the Doctor should have said? "Alons-y!" Let's go! Let's go to that next adventure? To quote the song: "This time tomorrow, what will we have become?" Alons-y!

That's the Doctor I know.
 
He was hardly willing.

He was willing. No one forced him to save Wilf. He ranted and raved because he was angry and didn't want to, which is a perfectly natural reaction to realizing that you're doomed. But once he'd gotten that out of the way, he calmed down and re-affirmed that he cared more about Wilf than himself, and that while he didn't WANT to die to save Wilf, he was WILLING to.

"It would be my honor."

Him sacrificing himself to save Wilf was the Doctor, but his crying fit and, worse, line of "I don't want to go" went against what has been established in prior Who. Regeneration is not the death of a man and the birth of a another.

The consistency of RTD's depiction of regeneration is a separate debate from whether or not the Doctor was willing to sacrifice himself to save Wilf.

But obviously Ten saw it was being much more akin to death than you do, and yet he still sacrificed himself, viewing the inevitable regeneration as being the same thing as dying, even though he dreaded it.
 
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