I rate Martha as my favourite RTD companion.
Why so much negativity about the RTD?
- Thread starter RavenCWG
- Start date
I rate Martha as my favourite RTD companion.
I think people liked that she wasn't Rose. Once they had Donna as well, they realized that she wasn't all that good of a character. Rose at least seemed relatively competent on her own. Donna was defiant and her own person all the time. Martha seemed heavily dependent on the Doctor from my point of view. The fact that the actress can't act her way out of a paper bag didn't help.
RTD's era for the most part is universally acclaimed by fans & critics so I reject the premise that their is so much negativity with his handling of Doctor Who. The minorty may shout louder at times but that doesn't mean much in the end
I think in the end, this is what will out. Of course RTD wasn't perfect. He made some missteps. But the loud minority are just that, the minority. I'm not saying that out of blind devotion to RTD or anything, but because of the empirical evidence, ranging from the ratings to the more-telling Appreciation Index (at least two RTD-written episodes scored among the highest AIs ever recorded for British drama programming), to the awards and nominations. Yes, Moffat's name is on the Hugos (except the one RTD won himself), but if it weren't for decisions made by RTD, there would never have been an episode called Blink or The Girl in the Fireplace. The responsibility for their success rests as much on his shoulders as does the (relative) failure of Fear Her.
Someone wrote "haters gotta hate" earlier in this thread, and that's very true. Bashing the show runner is a popular sport in sci-fi fandom, and we all know that. From Berman and Braga to George Lucas to Joss Whedon (he ain't immune, folks - just look at factions of Buffy and Angel fandom that got upset when Whedon spent more time on his "new toy" Firefly back in the day) to JJ Abrams.
John Nathan-Turner was the Devil Incarnate in the opinion of many DW fans by around 1987-88, yet these days people are giving his era, especially the later years, some serious reevaluation. Yes, nothing can save The Twin Dilemma (although the scenes between the Doctor and Peri remain among the bravest ever attempted on DW - even the new series hasn't gone so far as to have the Doctor physically and emotionally assault his companion. If such an episode were made today, Peri would have had the Doctor up on charges), but look at how The Happiness Patrol went from more or less a spoofy throwaway to being reevaluated as a cutting piece of political satire. JNT didn't write it, but he still "owned" it, as much as he "owned" Twin Dilemma and Colin Baker's barf-coat.
The only thing that actually offends me about the bashing of RTD is the whole "gay agenda" issue. I'm not gay, nor am I particularly far left-leaning, but I thought the negative (or, worse, eye-rolling) reaction by some whenever RTD tossed in a little gay humor or, heaven forbid, a gay character was a bit out of hand. By the time Moffat did his little twist with Trip Delaware the term "gay agenda" was treated as something of a joke by reviewers, except those who decided it was a good time to bring up their big beef with RTD. Again. Ironically I kept hearing fear and loathing that RTD was going to make the Doctor gay, especially early on, yet RTD was the one who firmly introduced the concept of romance into Doctor Who (which created a new source of complaint from people who I guess are still in the "girls are yucky" phase of life - JUST A JOKE!).
Bottom line is, RTD has done his bit for Queen and country and provided 4 1/2 high-rated, well-reviewed, award-winning, franchise-reviving seasons, which resulted in people giving a damn about Doctor Who again, including those for whom it had become a Star Trek-like joke. And one of the Doctors he hired, David Tennant, became iconic and more or less is officially now more popular than Tom Baker. People can harp about RTD all they like, none of that can be undone. And none of this "decanonizing" crap will work either. Watch the preview for The Doctor's Wife.
But like every Doctor, every showrunner/lead writer has to move on. If you don't like Moffat's approach, tough it out for a few years until Mark Gatiss or Richard Curtis takes over or something...
My last word is a verbatim quote from a friend of mind who watched an episode of DW (I think it was Doomsday) back to back with an episode of Moore's Battlestar Galactica, at a time when nuBSG was considered by many to be the best SF series on the air - this was before it had outstayed its welcome. His comment: "BSG was such as let-down after watching Doctor Who."
Alex
I've never understood the hate for the RTD era. I don't think he is a bad writer but I think with Doctor Who he played it too safe. If you don't think so, just look at how dark Torchwood is. Also, as someone else mentioned above, he was good at set up and little arcs but the end result wasn't as satisfying.
Having written that, I think Steven Moffat is a much better writer and show runner. I really enjoyed series 5 and series 6 promises to exceed expectations but I also have to give a large amount of credit to Matt Smith. I think he and Steven Moffat are a match made in heaven.
Having written that, I think Steven Moffat is a much better writer and show runner. I really enjoyed series 5 and series 6 promises to exceed expectations but I also have to give a large amount of credit to Matt Smith. I think he and Steven Moffat are a match made in heaven.
I'll admit it was RTD that was largely reponsible for drawing me into the franchise in the first place. Before he came along Doctor Who was commonly regarded as a joke, something to be laughed and sneered at. The (IMO) terrible 1996 Movie also helped me to stay far away from it as well.
Few critics thought the franchise could work in the 21st century but RTD showed that Doctor Who did have a future after all. That said his schtick did get old after a while and he seemed to be reliant on reusing the same cliches (such as companion in love with the Doctor) and trying to make each finale even bigger than the last. Tennant's performance also started grating me after a while and the specials year just seemed to be an execuse to milk the 10th Doctor all they could. When he regenerated I was thinking "Finally... now we can move on." It didn't help that Matt Smith was revealed as the next Doctor a year before the regeneration took place.
So far the Moffat era has been a mixed bag. I'll admit that often it's too clever for its own good. I also feel much more detached to what's going on and don't care nearly as much about what happens to the Doctor and his companions. Another episode like "Victory of the Daleks" (If I started going on about that episode we would be here all day) might kill the show for me.
Few critics thought the franchise could work in the 21st century but RTD showed that Doctor Who did have a future after all. That said his schtick did get old after a while and he seemed to be reliant on reusing the same cliches (such as companion in love with the Doctor) and trying to make each finale even bigger than the last. Tennant's performance also started grating me after a while and the specials year just seemed to be an execuse to milk the 10th Doctor all they could. When he regenerated I was thinking "Finally... now we can move on." It didn't help that Matt Smith was revealed as the next Doctor a year before the regeneration took place.
So far the Moffat era has been a mixed bag. I'll admit that often it's too clever for its own good. I also feel much more detached to what's going on and don't care nearly as much about what happens to the Doctor and his companions. Another episode like "Victory of the Daleks" (If I started going on about that episode we would be here all day) might kill the show for me.
Hi guys. Thanks for all the great replies! It's awsome to hear that there are still a lot of RTD supporters out there. And to be quite honestly, I can understand and respect some of the legitimate criticisms some of you have expressed about the RTD-era, even if I still don't necessarily agree with all of them.
There have been quite a few points brought up, though, that I do eventually want to respond to individually; however, unfortunately, I don't have a lot of time at the moment, so I'll start with one now and get to the others later as time permits.
This is one of the most common complaints that I've heard about the RTD-era. Ironically, however, if you really stop look at it, the perception isn't entirely accurate. Sure Rose fell in love with the Doctor, but that is not at all how the relationship started out. In fact, I would argue that she didn't honestly start to think of the Doctor in truly romantic terms (or he for her, for that matter) until sometime well into the second season (after Mickey decided to stay in the parallel world). Their's was a romance that grew very slowly and organically from a deep and sincere friendship, which felt very natural and unplanned, as opposed to what is so often the case in most TV shows where the female character is specifically written in from the very start for the sole and explicit purpose to be the love interest for the male lead.
Martha, on the other hand, had a completely different kind of relationship with the Doctor. She was clearly intrigued and infatuated with him from the very start; however, she soon realized that his hearts belonged to another, and that she would never have that kind of relationship with him. And that is ultimately why she ended up leaving and going back to her life.
Donna was yet again a totally different case. There was NEVER any kind of sexual tension between them whatsoever. Instead she was more like his loud, exocentric, sometimes annoying sister.
The only other (at least part-time) companion during the RTD-era to have a thing for the Doctor was Jack...and...well...he flirted with EVERYBODY, so he doesn't really count.
There have been quite a few points brought up, though, that I do eventually want to respond to individually; however, unfortunately, I don't have a lot of time at the moment, so I'll start with one now and get to the others later as time permits.
This is one of the most common complaints that I've heard about the RTD-era. Ironically, however, if you really stop look at it, the perception isn't entirely accurate. Sure Rose fell in love with the Doctor, but that is not at all how the relationship started out. In fact, I would argue that she didn't honestly start to think of the Doctor in truly romantic terms (or he for her, for that matter) until sometime well into the second season (after Mickey decided to stay in the parallel world). Their's was a romance that grew very slowly and organically from a deep and sincere friendship, which felt very natural and unplanned, as opposed to what is so often the case in most TV shows where the female character is specifically written in from the very start for the sole and explicit purpose to be the love interest for the male lead.
Martha, on the other hand, had a completely different kind of relationship with the Doctor. She was clearly intrigued and infatuated with him from the very start; however, she soon realized that his hearts belonged to another, and that she would never have that kind of relationship with him. And that is ultimately why she ended up leaving and going back to her life.
Donna was yet again a totally different case. There was NEVER any kind of sexual tension between them whatsoever. Instead she was more like his loud, exocentric, sometimes annoying sister.
The only other (at least part-time) companion during the RTD-era to have a thing for the Doctor was Jack...and...well...he flirted with EVERYBODY, so he doesn't really count.
I don't disagree with most of your points but about this one, keep in mind that Curse of the Black Spot got an AI of 88. Kind of tells you how accurate those things are!
Mr Awe
So? That means a lot of the audience enjoys it. What's so wrong about that?
I don't disagree with most of your points but about this one, keep in mind that Curse of the Black Spot got an AI of 88. Kind of tells you how accurate those things are!
Mr Awe
^^ It's not a good measure of quality, is it? A subpar episode receiving such an outstanding AI. Yeah, quality is subjective, but this episode is widely regarded as a dissappointment. Was this episode really at the same level as the numerous other episodes that got an 88?
At any rate, I'm just giving him a hard time, like I said, I mostly agree with his points.
Mr Awe
At any rate, I'm just giving him a hard time, like I said, I mostly agree with his points.
Mr Awe
It's not a measure of quality it's a measure of how much the audience enjoyed it. Lots of low quality things can be enjoyed very much. So it's to see how much the audience appreciated it, not how good technically they thought it to be.
(Emphasis mine)
Britains got talent, X-Factor... I can think of a dozen or more progammes to support this opinion.
And...Just because 75% of the posts on this board are less than favorable, doesn't mean 75% of the audience in general wasn't overly satisfied with it.
Dude, it was a joke. He pinned part of his argument on the AI and I'm just giving him a hard time about the recent episode getting an 88. Go chill, you're over thinking this!
Mr Awe
Or just, you know, cotton candy. It's not very good but it can still be enjoyed very much.
I wasn't sure if your point was serious or a joke but I wasn't arguing, just making the point that it is perfectly valid that the AI could be high but you wouldn't necessarily see it as a fantastic episode.
In any event, Voyage of the Damned got an obscenely high AI, and that was fucking awful.
Anyway.
I don't hate Davies' era. I've said countless times here that I can't think of a producer who could have relaunched the series as well and effectively as he did, and I am very grateful for that. The 2005 season is probably still my favorite overall.
My problem with Davies comes from a few different areas. One was already pointed out by Allyn Gibson -- he sucks at plotting. It's explained somewhat in The Writer's Tale, when he talks about how he'd just start at scene 1 and write the whole thing without planning it out, but that's, to be frank, shitty writing.
My other huge complaint is that he's just so fucking self-indulgent. Rose was the greatest character ever, so after she was ripped away from the Doctor in Doomsday, we had to get an entire season of Martha pining for the Doctor while the Doctor was nursing a boner for Rose, and then we had to get an entire fourth season of ROSE ROSE ROSE ROSE until it culminated in Rose getting a Doctor Realdoll to play with in her universe. Ugh.
And speaking of self-indulgence, his finales. Eccleston's ended with the Daleks being revealed as the big enemy and they were ready to raise some hell. Groovy. I can roll with high stakes being involved in the first season's finale, it helps introduce some seriousness to everything. And then he repeated it with Army of Ghosts / Doomsday, with the Cybermen being revealed as the Ghosts, and the Daleks showing up out of fucking nowhere to raise hell. (I give that a pass, because the reveal of the Daleks at the end of Army of Ghosts was fucking awesome.) But then with Last of the Time Lords, we not only had the Doctor being turned into Dobby followed by his transfiguration into Cell Phone Jesus, but there were the Toclafane and the Master raising hell. Of course, at the end, it's totally reset. Fourth season, it's Daleks (again) and Davros and their REALITY BOMB WHICH WILL DESTROY REALITY ITSELF or whatever bullshit they were spouting. Davies finally outdid himself with The End of Time, Part 2, with Gallifrey actually taking the place of Earth, followed by the Master using Force Lightning to reverse everything. Jesus.
There's over-the-top, and then there's what the fuck is going on. RTD's finales had a lot of the latter.
Again, I really enjoy quite a few of his individual episodes, and a few of them I really love, but the later years of his run as producer just felt like "OK, what else can I do?"
Anyway.
I don't hate Davies' era. I've said countless times here that I can't think of a producer who could have relaunched the series as well and effectively as he did, and I am very grateful for that. The 2005 season is probably still my favorite overall.
My problem with Davies comes from a few different areas. One was already pointed out by Allyn Gibson -- he sucks at plotting. It's explained somewhat in The Writer's Tale, when he talks about how he'd just start at scene 1 and write the whole thing without planning it out, but that's, to be frank, shitty writing.
My other huge complaint is that he's just so fucking self-indulgent. Rose was the greatest character ever, so after she was ripped away from the Doctor in Doomsday, we had to get an entire season of Martha pining for the Doctor while the Doctor was nursing a boner for Rose, and then we had to get an entire fourth season of ROSE ROSE ROSE ROSE until it culminated in Rose getting a Doctor Realdoll to play with in her universe. Ugh.
And speaking of self-indulgence, his finales. Eccleston's ended with the Daleks being revealed as the big enemy and they were ready to raise some hell. Groovy. I can roll with high stakes being involved in the first season's finale, it helps introduce some seriousness to everything. And then he repeated it with Army of Ghosts / Doomsday, with the Cybermen being revealed as the Ghosts, and the Daleks showing up out of fucking nowhere to raise hell. (I give that a pass, because the reveal of the Daleks at the end of Army of Ghosts was fucking awesome.) But then with Last of the Time Lords, we not only had the Doctor being turned into Dobby followed by his transfiguration into Cell Phone Jesus, but there were the Toclafane and the Master raising hell. Of course, at the end, it's totally reset. Fourth season, it's Daleks (again) and Davros and their REALITY BOMB WHICH WILL DESTROY REALITY ITSELF or whatever bullshit they were spouting. Davies finally outdid himself with The End of Time, Part 2, with Gallifrey actually taking the place of Earth, followed by the Master using Force Lightning to reverse everything. Jesus.
There's over-the-top, and then there's what the fuck is going on. RTD's finales had a lot of the latter.
Again, I really enjoy quite a few of his individual episodes, and a few of them I really love, but the later years of his run as producer just felt like "OK, what else can I do?"
My biggest disappointment with "The End Of Time" is RTD didn't take a chance and bring back The Time Lords for good instead of just sending them back into the Time War. Now, that might have something to do with it being his last episode but I was disappointed The Time Lords never made it back into the series as the antagonist.
RTD never seemed one who was too keen on taking big chances and maybe that had something to do with the rose (no pun intended) colored glasses he saw Doctor Who through. Also, to Steven Moffat's credit, he has been taking more chances and trying to create something new as opposed to bringing back the same old bad guys.
QFT. He had this obnoxious habit of When in doubt, go over the top. Unfortunately, he also had David Tennant, who operated off of much the same principle. Tennant & Davies tended to bring out the worst in each other.
And the post-"Doomsday" Rose-worship was very unfortunate. It ended up damaging most of Season 3 beyond repair. Season 4 fared a lot better, mostly because Catherine Tate was too strong of an actress to ever disappear into another actor's shadow. But still, the tacked-on happy ending to the Rose storyline in "Journey's End" only served to undermine the devastating emotional impact of "Doomsday." At that point, RTD became his own worst enemy, not only undermining his current stories but also neutering some of his better previous work.
It's a shame, because he did a lot of great stuff in Seasons 1 & 2.
