Why is the Trek community so negative about Voyager?

[Saito S]

The list of good Paris episodes is so unimpressive as to confirm my point.

What point?? You cannot "prove" that Paris was a bad character in my eyes, because he WASN'T. And that was the only point I was trying to make, that even if you thought he sucked, I actually thought he was a pretty cool guy.
And you are also implying (again) that my list of Paris eps was BAD. Not that you didn't like them or that you disagree, but that those eps were factually bad by some objectively measurable criteria.

You really need to stop trying to pass your opinion off as hard fact.

Janeway almost never exhibited a different personality,

except when she totally did, like in the examples I gave, most of which you ignored

whereas you never, ever knew which Seven of Nine would be on deck.

Speak for yourself. I already acknowledged that there was inconsistency with regard to just how advanced her understanding of human emotion was from ep to ep; other than that, I don't see this MASSIVE personality swing in her that you do.

The alleged inconsistencies almost inevitably lie in complex decisions where there is no such thing as consistency in the first place.

So... you are saying that you feel Janeway has excuses for some of her erratic behavior/inconsistent writing. And this is different from me pointing out that as a liberated Borg drone, it is inevitable that Seven will show some instability and erratic behavior... how, exactly?

Regardless, I still feel that Janeway was written with more inconsistency than Seven. Disagree all you want.

The interesting thing about citing this is that Night has been hailed as an example of Voyager meeting its premise, i.e., fulfilling its potential. Harping on about wasted potential, then citing as an example of bad writing that uses that alleged potential exposes the illogic of the flawed premise of wasted potential. And ignoring the incredibly bad science in Night also shows that criticism of the bad science is not in fact a given. If the implication was that Janeway's depression in Night was a good development and this potential should have been developed instead of forgotten, I can only laugh.

Except I never said that "Night" was a good example of of them using their potential.
Except I didn't "ignore" the bad science; I didn't bring it up at ALL. I just used the ep as an example of Janeway's mood swings.
Except I never said I thought Janeway's depression in "Night" was a GOOD development, in fact I implied that I thought THE EXACT OPPOSITE!

As to the bullshit about opinion,

Bullshit, huh? So you really DO believe that the things you've been saying ARE hard facts, then?

it is merely commonly accepted opinion that there was any dramatic potential wasted. It is an opinion which no one can defend,

Sure they can. Seen it done a million times.

even when you can point to other series that allegedly fulfilled that potential. Even if somehow you liked BattleStar Galactica, you didn't like it because it showed a non-pristine ship. I've kept thinking about the example of Stargate: Universe as well, except I find so little drama in the survivalist premise I never bothered to finish an episode. But why don't those of you who like survivalist epics point to SGU as an example showing how Voyager didn't live up to its potential? SGU is godawful because of its wretched premise. And complaining I'm just baiting SGU fans isn't an answer.

You ARE baiting SGU fans, but whatever.
NONE OF THIS IS RELEVANT. I don't give a flying fark about BSG or SGU when discussing the merits of Voyager or it's wasted potential, because I DIDN'T WATCH THOSE SHOWS. I have seen, maybe... six eps of BSG. It had some interesting aspects, but I couldn't get into it. Same with SGU: saw a few eps, liked aspects of it, couldn't stick with it.

Good gravy... I see why GodBen decided it wasn't worth it to try and seriously debate you. If your next post contains the same tone and approach as the ones that I've replied to, don't expect much of a rebuttal from me.

It proves-- what? How? I don't even... you know what, I'm speechless. I can't go on, your inane logic has finally broken my spirit. Yes, that's exactly what everyone in this thread thinks. Yes, there are five lights. You win.

Now you see THE TRUE POWER OF ANWARRRRRRR!

*thunderclap*

This thread's theme song.

So freaking true!

They talked about

So wait... "they" no longer refers to the imaginary VOY hatedome, but now refers to US, the people in this thread, right?

how VOY mishandled the Borg, how the Borg were weaker and dumber. That means EVERY Borg appearance, to them, was mishandled,

I never said that. I said MANY Borg appearances on VOY were mishandled, not ALL. Scorpion, for example, was amazing. Stop putting words in my mouth.

which naturally also includes that one scene where VOY destroyed a TINY PROBE SHIP.

They couldn't even handle VOY destroying a vessel that was CLEARLY their inferior in every way.

I have NEVER commented specifically on that one scene. Stop making things up.

And until anyone comes out and says "It's okay that VOY destroyed a weakling Borg probe", there's no counter-evidence.

It's okay that VOY destroyed a weakling Borg probe.

After all, the Ent-E blew away that sphere in FC like it was nothing. This established that - while the Cubes are known to be extremely powerful - the smaller Borg ships are relatively weak. Thus, it only stands to reason that Voyager could destroy a similarly weak probe without too much difficulty. If TNG can do it, why can't VOY, right? I mean, it's not like there's some kind of silly double standard at work here, right!? Haha! ha... ha...

 

[RyuRoots]

They talked about how VOY mishandled the Borg, how the Borg were weaker and dumber. That means EVERY Borg appearance, to them, was mishandled, which naturally also includes that one scene where VOY destroyed a TINY PROBE SHIP.

They couldn't even handle VOY destroying a vessel that was CLEARLY their inferior in every way.

No. No, no, no, no, no. This is not how you debate. No one said this. No one. You are using hyperbole and exaggeration and accusing people (and not naming anyone specific, I'll note) of things they didn't say.

Then admit that you didn't have a problem with VOY destroying a weak Probe ship. It'll show there's at least one person here who didn't think it was unbelievable.

No. Frankly, I don't remember the episode THAT well, so I might have a problem with it for a specific reason, or I may not. And even if I have some issue with that specific instance (and I may not!), that does not mean that I think everything ever with the Borg was mishandled in VOY.

 

[Anwar]

Okay, finally we're getting somewhere. Folks are finally admitting it's not beyond possibility for VOY to ever destroy a single Borg vessel without too much hassle. It's a start.

 

[RyuRoots]

Okay, finally we're getting somewhere. Folks are finally admitting it's not beyond possibility for VOY to ever destroy a single Borg vessel without too much hassle. It's a start.

Uh...except no one ever said that it wasn't in the first place? You are the only person here who ever said this.

 

[Anwar]

And what folks here were saying about the Borg being "emasculated" or "mishandled" supported the "Voyager could never defeat the Borg" thing.

 

[RyuRoots]

And what folks here were saying about the Borg being "emasculated" or "mishandled" supported the "Voyager could never defeat the Borg" thing.

These are three completely separate things. You have to understand that before we move on. No one supports the third bolded item. If the TNG crew can best a Borg vessel on their own (the probe in FC, the rogue ship in Descent, the cube in BOBW), then there's nothing wrong with VOY doing so. If you can point to me someone disagreeing with THAT SPECIFICALLY (and quote them as saying so) then I'll concede that THAT is a double-standard on the part of that specific person.

However, that is not what people argue.

 

[Anwar]

Darkwing Duck said

And while we're on the subject of the Borg...talk about an emasculation...the entire Federation nearly fell numerous times to them but Janeway the AllMighty can kick their asses from here to the Alpha Quadrant and back...

Meaning he couldn't stand the idea of VOY ever taking on a Borg vessel and emerging victorious, regardless of how it was done.

 

[RyuRoots]

Darkwing Duck said

And while we're on the subject of the Borg...talk about an emasculation...the entire Federation nearly fell numerous times to them but Janeway the AllMighty can kick their asses from here to the Alpha Quadrant and back...

Meaning he couldn't stand the idea of VOY ever taking on a Borg vessel and emerging victorious, regardless of how it was done.

That is not what he said. You are sticking words into his mouth. His complaint is that he feels Voyager had too little difficulty compared to what we were shown in TNG. Whether or not you or I disagree with it, he was not saying what you said in that post.

 

[Anwar]

In TNG we saw them destroy a Borg ship all on their own with a Skeleton crew and Crusher in command (though she was quite effective as a Captain). Not much difficulty there. VOY's Borg encounters were hardly any easier.

 

[flemm]

Okay, finally we're getting somewhere.

Yes, it's been a long time coming, but at last progress has been made! I'm looking forward to more startling revelations when I check back in next week.

 

[RyuRoots]

In TNG we saw them destroy a Borg ship all on their own with a Skeleton crew and Crusher in command (though she was quite effective as a Captain). Not much difficulty there. VOY's Borg encounters were hardly any easier.

That's a matter of opinion, which other people may disagree with. The big point I'm trying to drive home is that what you said and what he said are two different things. Can we agree on that?

 

[Anwar]

Then he should have clarified. VOY hardly "emasculated" the Borg compared to how TNG treated them after BOBW.

 

[Dusty Ayres]

Harry, Chakotay, Neelix and Tuvok didn't change much, especially Harry. Obviously, DS9 did a better job with character development, but I reject that Voyager had none whatsoever.

Harry changed from being a nervous Nellie to being somewhat confident about himself (telling off Paris in one episode and standing up to Janeway in another); Chakotay managed to help Seven be more human by falling in love with her; Neelix became a bit more complex and was able to be more assertive in his dealings with Tuvok (check out that episode about the space elevator) plus he finally committed to his people in the episode 'Homestead by staying with a colony of Talaxians. I will make a supposition and say that Tuvok, like most Vulcans (IMHO) never really changed anyway.

 

[RyuRoots]

Then he should have clarified. VOY hardly "emasculated" the Borg compared to how TNG treated them after BOBW.

First off, his wording and yours are very different, I don't think he needs to clarify anything.

Secondly, this is your OPINION, which is still valid, but so are opinions that disagree with it. Some people disagree with it WITHOUT thinking that Voyager did everything worse than everyone else.

 

[Anwar]

If TNG could destroy the Borg ship in Descent and the Sphere in FC, there's nothing stopping VOY from doing similar stuff. And yet when they DID, all they got were complaints. It's simply double standard.

 

[Brit]

I think it is entirely possible that every time the Borg had contact with the Federation they actually became progressively weaker. Remember the Borg are only strong until they meet the race they cannot assimilate, or the one (insert the Federation here) with the power and the will to effectively resist.

The Borg seek perfection, most of all within themselves, who know how a collective mind handles defeat on any level.

Brit

 

[RyuRoots]

If TNG could destroy the Borg ship in Descent and the Sphere in FC, there's nothing stopping VOY from doing similar stuff. And yet when they DID, all they got were complaints. It's simply double standard.

No, it's really not. Circumstances are different, and people have beefs with the specifics. And before you ask, no, I'm not going to name any because my thoughts on the Borg are not on trial, the discussion is about how people can dislike something without just disliking it for existing.

People who dislike those episodes don't dislike then "just because it's Voyager", they just happened to not enjoy that episode(s).

So, no. It is not a double standard and never has been.

 

[Anwar]

The VOY Borg episodes were no different than "Descent" in how VOY got attacked by the Borg but managed to succeed on their own. The only difference is that it happened more than once. That's all.

And there was no cannon fodder to sacrifice to the Borg to build up tension.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Well, there are members of the Trek Community who hate Voyager for the fact that it existed. Mainly these are Niners though ...

Not this shit again.

True. I am a huge DS9 fan and I like VOY the way it is, despite its flaws. The same holds true for many shows and films and books. My friends get tired of me pointing out logical flaws in Harry Potter, yet I still like it.

I don't think that one thing negates the other.

 

[TheGodBen]

Yes, it's been a long time coming, but at last progress has been made! I'm looking forward to more startling revelations when I check back in next week.

You think this thread will last a week? I give it three days before something snaps and one of the posters explodes in an orgy of vicious swearing that will be so powerful it will be visible as far south as the Gaming forum.