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Why is the Trek community so negative about Voyager?

I've been away from this message board for quite some time, and I'm very glad to come back to this thread. I've always wondered why our beloved Voyager was hated so? I loved the diversity of the crew, all the time travel and borg episodes, and I don't care if technobabble was used for plot filler, I actually dig sci-fi science!

But... I'm also of the small percentage that genuinely loved Enterprise as well. :-o
 
I skipped a few pages as I wanted to find out if the OP ever posted pics of his big chest and arms that make him look cooler than your 'typical' Trekkie.
I checked his profile for pics but none there.
 
It seemed like they hit the reset button quite a bit.
Whoever said that was right. To me, that was the main problem with Voyager. I did enjoy the show but nothing compares to DS9 in my mind.

I think I outline the main problems with VOY earlier. It just came at the wrong time, and was definately on the wrong network. And it needed a new writing staff (like Berman wanted).

DS9 did the reset button too, but not nearly as often because the writers were in actual control of the show unlike the VOY Producers.
 
That would have been unbelievable, and counterproductive. Completely wiping out an enemy would serve no purpose other than to limit future creativity.

When that enemy had already reached its peak as the Ultimate Foe, then there's no where else to go but down. It's like Doomsday or Bane from DC Comics.

Nope. In every Borg appearance, without exception, damage was always done. Drones were killed. The Borg always took time to re-adapt in every engagement. They were never completely invincible, and fans at large did not have a problem with that. In fact, I think most would agree it would have been stupid if they were utterly invincible.

And yet, the idea that VOY could destroy a minuscule PROBE ship was utterly repugnant to them.

This is an irrelevant excuse. It doesn't matter what you think would have made sense. The fact is, that didn't happen -- and therefore the Borg were not invincible or impossible to hide from in TNG. That was what you were postulating in the first place, to support your claim that fans wanted them to be invincible in VOY just like they were in TNG. It has been demonstrated that your premise is wrong. Why do you continue arguing it?

Because in VOY the Borg were shown to not be invincible and that another species could do enough damage to destroy them in battle, and the audience hated it. Borg-not-invincible = audience hatred. Easy relationship.
 
The list of good Paris episodes is so unimpressive as to confirm my point.

Janeway almost never exhibited a different personality, whereas you never, ever knew which Seven of Nine would be on deck. The alleged inconsistencies almost inevitably lie in complex decisions where there is no such thing as consistency in the first place. The saying, "Hard cases make bad law," arose because of this. In Caretaker, Tuvok observes out of the blue that the Prime Directive forbade assisting the Caretaker fulfill his plans. I don't understand the logic, but the intent is clear: Janeway will ignore the letter of the law to fulfill the spirit of the law, or some higher principle. (The Prime Directive is really rather a vacuous concept, which causes huge confusion, as does to a lesser extent the whole idea of Star Fleet principles.)

Janeway's depression in Night, is an exception to this rule. Depression as an untreatable disease flatly contradicts the 24th century setting. And curing it by meeting a life or death crisis flatly contradicts real life. Such problems return after the crisis is resolved. Plus, humanoid creatures living in interstellar space in the dark being able to tolerate the high temperatures in Voyager, not to mention having eyes for some unknown reason is a notable example of the ghastly science. The episode is badly premised, with arbitrary character "development."

The interesting thing about citing this is that Night has been hailed as an example of Voyager meeting its premise, i.e., fulfilling its potential. Harping on about wasted potential, then citing as an example of bad writing that uses that alleged potential exposes the illogic of the flawed premise of wasted potential. And ignoring the incredibly bad science in Night also shows that criticism of the bad science is not in fact a given. If the implication was that Janeway's depression in Night was a good development and this potential should have been developed instead of forgotten, I can only laugh.

As to the bullshit about opinion, it is merely commonly accepted opinion that there was any dramatic potential wasted. It is an opinion which no one can defend, even when you can point to other series that allegedly fulfilled that potential. Even if somehow you liked BattleStar Galactica, you didn't like it because it showed a non-pristine ship. I've kept thinking about the example of Stargate: Universe as well, except I find so little drama in the survivalist premise I never bothered to finish an episode. But why don't those of you who like survivalist epics point to SGU as an example showing how Voyager didn't live up to its potential? SGU is godawful because of its wretched premise. And complaining I'm just baiting SGU fans isn't an answer.
 
I like SGU, actually. I don't think it's the same as VOY since they had contact with Earth from the start, they can't control where they're going, and they still have overall connections to the rest of the Stargate Universe with the Lucian Alliance and stuff.

What VOY needed to do was be more stationary. In Farscape they never left the area of space that the Peacekeepers and Scarrans inhabited, so this meant they could flesh out their "World" a bit better.

If VOY, for whatever reason, stayed in the same vast area of space for most of the show then they could've fleshed out all the species and their own connections to one another much better than just moving on from spot to another.
 
When that enemy had already reached its peak as the Ultimate Foe, then there's no where else to go but down. It's like Doomsday or Bane from DC Comics.
But don't you think it would be awfully arrogant for a writer to kill off a whole species under the assumption that nobody else could ever possibly write anything better?


And yet, the idea that VOY could destroy a minuscule PROBE ship was utterly repugnant to them.
To whom? I told you to stop talking about your imaginary audience.


Borg-not-invincible = audience hatred. Easy relationship.
Honestly, it's as if you don't even read the quotes you reply to. Your relationship is provably false, even by your own logic -- you admit that the audience didn't hate the Borg throughout TNG, yet historically they were never invincible. I don't understand why you seem incapable of thinking in anything but extremes. It has nothing to do with invincibility. VOY simply overused them and made them seem dumb instead of scary. You cannot pin this down to one episode or one simple reason like "they were damaged". I'm sorry, but reality isn't that black and white.
 
If VOY, for whatever reason, stayed in the same vast area of space for most of the show then they could've fleshed out all the species and their own connections to one another much better than just moving on from spot to another.


Well, there was also the Prime Directive problem, which meant that you had a series about a starship traveling through space that was trying very hard NOT to have any impact on the aliens they encountered. Their official mission statement was to get home WITHOUT making a difference anywhere they went. Which obviously makes it harder to tell exciting stories about their adventures.

I'm not sure how the show was supposed to get around that, but, conceptually, it was a problem.
 
But don't you think it would be awfully arrogant for a writer to kill off a whole species under the assumption that nobody else could ever possibly write anything better?

Not really, no. Once you hit a certain peak with how dangerous an enemy is and how close they came to complete victory you just have to realize "We can't really top this" and remove them from the show to prevent future dilution. They were never going to let the Borg win and assimilate part of the Federation or anything like that, so there was no way to top BOBW. They should have just killed them all and never use them again since they were all dead.


To whom? I told you to stop talking about your imaginary audience.

Ask around, whenever anyone says that it was ridiculous that VOY could destroy a Borg vessel on its own, or that they could have any sort of victory over the Borg, they also are talking about that Probe ship.


you admit that the audience didn't hate the Borg throughout TNG, yet historically they were never invincible. I don't understand why you seem incapable of thinking in anything but extremes. It has nothing to do with invincibility. VOY simply overused them and made them seem dumb instead of scary.

The Borg really didn't have any place in VOY, they were too powerful and without a civilization of their own to defend from Borg attacks this left them with the sole option of defeating the Borg. In shows like Farscape, Blakes Seven and NuBSG the good guy shad FTL superior to all their foes that allowed them to easily escape. VOY on the other hand, did not have any means of escaping the Borg. Hiding would only have been temporary since they'd have to come out sometime and the Borg have enough ships to spare to wait around. They had two options: Run or destroy them. They couldn't run so somehow the plot had to end with them destroying the Borg ship chasing them.

Well, there was also the Prime Directive problem, which meant that you had a series about a starship traveling through space that was trying very hard NOT to have any impact on the aliens they encountered. Their official mission statement was to get home WITHOUT making a difference anywhere they went. Which obviously makes it harder to tell exciting stories about their adventures.

I'm not sure how the show was supposed to get around that, but, conceptually, it was a problem

The PD only really applies to affecting civilizations who don't know about alien lifeforms, and messing around in their internal affairs without permission. If someone who knows about aliens just out and asks for help then VOY wouldn't have any problems. But stuff like trading technology, and I mean ADVANCED tech that would really shake things up, is a really messy issue that must be avoided. But simple exchanges of parts, or resources, or aiding distress calls, that stuff is all okay.
 
Not really, no. Once you hit a certain peak with how dangerous an enemy is and how close they came to complete victory you just have to realize "We can't really top this" and remove them from the show to prevent future dilution. They were never going to let the Borg win and assimilate part of the Federation or anything like that, so there was no way to top BOBW. They should have just killed them all and never use them again since they were all dead.
You know, this is the sort of thinking that would have prevented TNG from existing in the first place.


Ask around
Nope, that's not how it works. You have 400 posts worth of material in this thread to work with, but instead you insist on concocting your own caricatures of opinions to represent the entire community. Maybe this is what you find when you "ask around" in your neighborhood, but here you have a global community, each person with their own experiences in their own neighborhoods, public reviews and polls, and the overwhelming consensus is that almost everything you say is entirely wrong. Your resilience in the face of utter, obvious defeat is astounding.
 
How does realizing when something has reached a peak and can't go any higher potentially keep TNG from being made? TOS hadn't reached any peaks, hell it was canceled after 3 seasons with the 3rd being pretty damn lame. The movies were good but not peaks reached there either.

And yes, this thread supports my point. The posters here talked about how VOY mishandled the Borg which only furthers proves that none of them could deal with VOY being able to defeat even a single Probe ship on their own. Darkwing Duck even stated that VOY emasculated the Borg, he's also referring to them defeating the Probe ship in all that.

The show as just no-win, at everything. No matter WHAT they did the audience was going to hate it.
 
The posters here talked about how VOY mishandled the Borg which only furthers proves that none of them could deal with VOY being able to defeat even a single Probe ship on their own.
:wtf:

It proves-- what? How? I don't even... you know what, I'm speechless. I can't go on, your inane logic has finally broken my spirit. Yes, that's exactly what everyone in this thread thinks. Yes, there are five lights. You win.
 
I don't know, Voyager was about 10-20% of really excellent episodes while all the rest was a forgettable mix of re-used plots (including time distortions, holodeck malfunctions, and great heaping helpings of the Borg). A lot of plots that were used once or twice in TNG make up the main bulk of Voyager, in my experience.
 
The posters here talked about how VOY mishandled the Borg which only furthers proves that none of them could deal with VOY being able to defeat even a single Probe ship on their own.
:wtf:

It proves-- what? How? I don't even... you know what, I'm speechless. I can't go on, your inane logic has finally broken my spirit. Yes, that's exactly what everyone in this thread thinks. Yes, there are five lights. You win.

They talked about how VOY mishandled the Borg, how the Borg were weaker and dumber. That means EVERY Borg appearance, to them, was mishandled, which naturally also includes that one scene where VOY destroyed a TINY PROBE SHIP.

They couldn't even handle VOY destroying a vessel that was CLEARLY their inferior in every way.

And until anyone comes out and says "It's okay that VOY destroyed a weakling Borg probe", there's no counter-evidence.
 
No, that's the Oberth. VOY is closer to being a Fast Destroyer or even a Light Cruiser (why does the smaller class get the more intimidating name?).
 
The posters here talked about how VOY mishandled the Borg which only furthers proves that none of them could deal with VOY being able to defeat even a single Probe ship on their own.
:wtf:

It proves-- what? How? I don't even... you know what, I'm speechless. I can't go on, your inane logic has finally broken my spirit. Yes, that's exactly what everyone in this thread thinks. Yes, there are five lights. You win.

They talked about how VOY mishandled the Borg, how the Borg were weaker and dumber. That means EVERY Borg appearance, to them, was mishandled, which naturally also includes that one scene where VOY destroyed a TINY PROBE SHIP.

They couldn't even handle VOY destroying a vessel that was CLEARLY their inferior in every way.

No. No, no, no, no, no. This is not how you debate. No one said this. No one. You are using hyperbole and exaggeration and accusing people (and not naming anyone specific, I'll note) of things they didn't say.
 
michaeljacksonthrillere.gif
 
:wtf:

It proves-- what? How? I don't even... you know what, I'm speechless. I can't go on, your inane logic has finally broken my spirit. Yes, that's exactly what everyone in this thread thinks. Yes, there are five lights. You win.

They talked about how VOY mishandled the Borg, how the Borg were weaker and dumber. That means EVERY Borg appearance, to them, was mishandled, which naturally also includes that one scene where VOY destroyed a TINY PROBE SHIP.

They couldn't even handle VOY destroying a vessel that was CLEARLY their inferior in every way.

No. No, no, no, no, no. This is not how you debate. No one said this. No one. You are using hyperbole and exaggeration and accusing people (and not naming anyone specific, I'll note) of things they didn't say.

Then admit that you didn't have a problem with VOY destroying a weak Probe ship. It'll show there's at least one person here who didn't think it was unbelievable.
 
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