Why is the Trek community so negative about Voyager?

[Michael]

As the Beatles once sang, "A more conversation, a little less action please".

Uh, that's an Elvis song.

I'm sure he knows.

 

[Anwar]

Since no one has been making those arguements, you must be in the wrong thread...

Not really, most anti-VOY arguments do fall under that.

Seriously, shows like Blakes Seven or Farscape only mostly focused on their own small groups of main characters with few recurring characters and NO ONE cared. VOY does that, and all the audience does is whine that they want to see 50 recurring characters showing up every episode.

As for not being "respectful" enough of TOS, seeing the lousy attitude TNG+ always got from the TOS fandom (before they ever mentioned TOS) there's little point in being nice to people who are nothing but nasty. I personally never liked overly-emotional types or "Cowboy Cop" types so it's no big issue with me.

As for BSG, it fell apart as a show after only two seasons. VOY had to last for 7.

 

[exodus]

Since no one has been making those arguements, you must be in the wrong thread...

Not really, most anti-VOY arguments do fall under that.

Seriously, shows like Blakes Seven or Farscape only mostly focused on their own small groups of main characters with few recurring characters and NO ONE cared. VOY does that, and all the audience does is whine that they want to see 50 recurring characters showing up every episode.

As for not being "respectful" enough of TOS, seeing the lousy attitude TNG+ always got from the TOS fandom (before they ever mentioned TOS) there's little point in being nice to people who are nothing but nasty. I personally never liked overly-emotional types or "Cowboy Cop" types so it's no big issue with me.

As for BSG, it fell apart as a show after only two seasons. VOY had to last for 7.

QFT.

 

[JoeZhang]

Since no one has been making those arguements, you must be in the wrong thread...

Not really, most anti-VOY arguments do fall under that.

Seriously, shows like Blakes Seven or Farscape only mostly focused on their own small groups of main characters with few recurring characters and NO ONE cared. VOY does that, and all the audience does is whine that they want to see 50 recurring characters showing up every episode.

As for not being "respectful" enough of TOS, seeing the lousy attitude TNG+ always got from the TOS fandom (before they ever mentioned TOS) there's little point in being nice to people who are nothing but nasty. I personally never liked overly-emotional types or "Cowboy Cop" types so it's no big issue with me.

As for BSG, it fell apart as a show after only two seasons. VOY had to last for 7.

But neither of those shows sucked, it's shameful to compare the Voyager with shows that actually took chances.

 

[Anwar]

So what if they "took chances"? The point I'm making is that those shows got away with focusing on their main characters and no one cared, but when VOY did that they just got insulted. It's pure double standard.

And Hell, Farscape also got away with not explaining a lot of the same stuff VOY gets criticized for as well. It's complete double standard.

 

[kimc]

So because nothing bad happened, it's okay that Janeway very nearly let something bad happen? If I go out onto a busy street and shoot a gun wildly, but I don't hit anybody, does that make it okay for me to put all those people's lives in danger?

We're not talking some random action here. There was a lot at stake. Lessing and his crew were murdering aliens and were about to allow Voyager to be destroyed to not only cover their crimes but to be able to continue their killing spree. Considering the blood on this guys hands a little time tied to a chair is not that big a deal. If he believed Janeway was going to unleash the aliens on him he may have experienced a few minutes of fear. Like I said before though, I don't think he believed it for a second.

I think it was the Beatles.

I think it was Elvis and he wanted "a little less conversation, a little more action".

As for nuBSG, I love both shows for what they are. They both have totally different philosophies for sure. For example, I had a hard time buying the "no other aliens out there" theory. No, I wasn't expecting the fleet to bump into a casino planet populated by aliens with bumpy foreheads but still...

 

[TheGodBen]

"You may have had good reason to stage a little mutiny of your own" is pretty much an admission of guilt to me. And Chakotay's response (as well as Tuvok's) was pretty much an indication of trust.

Personally, I don't see it as an admission of guilt, I see it as being that she's open to the possibility of being guilty, but Chakotay lets her off the hook by saying that he would have crossed a line by mutinying (which makes no sense for a character that joined the Maquis and fought against Starfleet, but I digress). If Chakotay had responded with "Maybe, but that's something I didn't want to do" I would have had an easier time dealing with it.

And if you don't believe there is a deliberate parallel between the captains here, then how do you explain the fact that both captains find their ship's dedication plaque in the bridge's rubble? When Chakotay says, "Let's put it back up where it belongs," he is repeating the exact words that Janeway said to Ransom in "Equinox, Part 1." Janeway's reaction shows that she remembers the incident and, I think, knows how close she had come to being as far out of line as Ransom had been. Close, but not quite.

There was a definite attempt by the writers to turn Janeway bad in that episode, I think we can all agree on that. The question is whether Janeway realised that she had crossed a line in the torture scene, did she feel remorse for it, how did she deal with Lessing in the future? I don't object to Janeway torturing a man if she feels it's necessary, I object to the lack of introspection afterwards.

There are two times where Sisko really crossed the line, one is when he poisoned a planet to capture Eddington, the other is when he lied to the Romulans to get them to enter the war. In the Eddington case, he knew what he was doing was wrong, in fact, the sole reason why he did it was because he felt he had to take the role of the bad guy to capture Eddington and that's what he decided to do. Sadly, the episode ended with him and Jadzia joking in a corridor and that hurts it in my view. Just like Equinox, I'd score it around a 7/10; I admire what was being tried but the execution left some things to be desired. The other time, in In the Pale Moonlight, the whole episode is an introspection, it's a confession by Sisko to the audience that he did a bad thing but he felt it was necessary. Agree or disagree with his actions, there's no denying that he's still struggling with his conscience. Sadly, the next episode has him singing with Odo in his office, but that shows that even my beloved DS9 isn't perfect.

My point is that Tuvk didn't just back away he trusted her judgment.

And my point is that Chakotay didn't trust her. If you're allowed to point to Tuvok trusting her in order to support her actions, then I'm allowed to point to Chakotay not trusting her in order to support my view that she was crossing a line.

That is where we are different. If I want drama and character stories I'll watch TNG (which I do like a lot) or 90210. I want ass kicking sci-fi and I don't mind reading between the lines there are only about 45 minutes to each episode

And that's fine, you're entitled to like what you like, so long as we accept that I'm not a sexist for having problems with the way the torture scene in Equinox was executed.

I can't recall... but here you are... from a man who never felt the need to justify his actions to anyone.

I don't regret the past I was only trying to live for this moment. ~John Lennon

I don't take advice from hippies, if I did then I'd be high all the time and never get out of bed.

Actually, that sounds like a wonderful life.

As the Beatles once sang, "A more conversation, a little less action please".

Uh, that's an Elvis song.

So Elvis sang a song about wanting more conversation and less action, did he?

Thus, discussions of Voyager always involve BattleStar Galactica, even if certain participants try their best to avoid acknowledging it. It's sort of a Banquo's ghost.

But I think you actually got that and just had trouble expressing your thoughts. I expect your real point was that you want to avoid discussing BSG's failure, despite its relevance, by pretending it isn't.

I have no trouble discussing BSG, I think that was a great show and what let it down was its focus on the mythology that RDM had no plan for. I otherwise admire the character and political drama and the fact that it showed the hardship endured by the survivors in the fleet. The reason why I didn't bother responding to you isn't because I'm embarrassed by BSG, far from it, it's because you were so obviously baiting BSG fans and expressing your own opinions as facts that there didn't seem to be a point in engaging you. I shall, however, engage someone far more reasonable on the subject.

Voyager improbably produces torpedoes and shuttle craft. BSG improbably creates a viper factory to replace it's store of ships and magically cures Roslin of cancer. If anything, the two show have too much in common in certain aspects. Both wound up chickening out on delivering the goods.

The Galactica didn't have a viper factory, Pegasus did, and they dealt with that issue in the episode Scar when they spent over a month in an asteroid field mining for ore to build new squadrons. Once Pegasus was destroyed, Galactica was left with that ship's vipers, which was twice as much as Galactica needed.

As for Roslin's cancer, the miracle cure wasn't so miraculous, now was it? In that final season Mary McDonnell gave what is possibly the best depiction of someone dying from a terminal illness that you're likely to see in a sci-fi show.

BSG had its flaws, largely in relation to its mythology and the sloppy motivation of the Cylons, but when it came to the in-fleet drama, the political and social consequences that Voyager didn't address, the show did a very good job.

 

[sonak]

Uhhhh... wasn't Janeway going to LEAVE HIM THERE TO BE KILLED? I thought it was only Chakotay stepping in that saved Lessing. That makes Janeway guilty of attempted murder, not just "leaving a guy tied up to a chair for a few minutes."

Sorry if I'm remembering the episode wrongly, it's been a while since I've seen it.

 

[kimc]

Uhhhh... wasn't Janeway going to LEAVE HIM THERE TO BE KILLED? I thought it was only Chakotay stepping in that saved Lessing. That makes Janeway guilty of attempted murder, not just "leaving a guy tied up to a chair for a few minutes."

She believed he was going to talk before that happened. Chakotay knew he wasn't buying the bluff and stepped in. Would Janeway have allowed it to happen? We don't find out for sure so it's a matter of personal opinion. Mine is she would have stopped it at the very last moment. When she tells Chakotay later that she "went too far" it's because she was letting her anger get the better of her instead of following the Starfleet principles she had dedicated her life to.

 

[Praxius]

So what if they "took chances"? The point I'm making is that those shows got away with focusing on their main characters and no one cared, but when VOY did that they just got insulted. It's pure double standard.

And Hell, Farscape also got away with not explaining a lot of the same stuff VOY gets criticized for as well. It's complete double standard.

Personally speaking, I don't get the BSG and Farscape comparisons because I never bothered to watch those shows, mostly because I was never interested in them and they seemed pretty shallow for the mind to wade into.

I imagine a few in here will try and defend these shows and suggest that I watch them, but you might as well save your breath because I wont.

Now.... why do I give Voyager a bit more of a hard time compared to other ST shows?

First.... Enterprise get's the worst of my flogging, Voyager second.....

I didn't hate Voyager, but after watching the series all the way through for the first time a couple of weeks ago, I was left no further impressed then when I originally started watching the show.

I personally don't care how BSG or Farscape or Babylon 5 focused on their character development.... I'm comparing to the other Star Trek shows it's related to and in regards to that, I give Voyager a D-.

Also, sure all the other ST shows had holes and gaps in certain stories and plots, but Voyager seemed too rushed and slapped together..... Enterprise however, was worse.

The other thing I didn't like was Janeway's attitude. Sure, I get their predicament of being in the DQ and having to find a way home.... but she and the rest of the crew passed up a number of perfect opportunities to get back home sooner.... and while I get her attitude of wanting to protect her ship and crew (which main Starfleet Captain of a show's ship or station so far wouldn't?) Many of her decisions and bold actions always seemed to cry out "Hey look at me, I'm the first female captain and I got a bigger pair of balls then any of the other jokers before me"

Now I don't mean to drag this into a sexism issue, but there were many times where she'd go against the grain, simply to go against the grain.... she doesn't take no for an answer from anybody, she has her first officer whipped into doing anything she demands, regardless of how foolish or insane her plan sounds... Even Riker, Spock and Kira had a number of opportunities to change the minds of Kirk, Picard or Sisko..... but no matter what Chakotay said or did, Janeway was always stuck in her way just about all the time and after her forcing her hand to the point of making Chakotay choose between her plan and total mutiny, he'd tuck his tail between his legs and do as she commanded....... and the final episode?

It was an interesting twist to tie up the series in a neat little bow..... but it's contradicting and a bit stale considering there were many times in the past she wouldn't break the prime directive for such trivial or simple situations.... but then has no problem breaking it and the temporal directive years later to bring her crew back..... so if that was the case, why didn't she just go all the way back to before they got pulled into the DQ and wait it out until the Caretaker died?

Or back when Q offered to take them back home and slap her younger self in the back of the head for being so stupid?

Or anytime there were other opportunities to go back.

Sure, she was a different person after losing a few other crew members through the original travel back home and that might have changed her perspective on those rules and regulations..... but she sure didn't have a problem treating Captain Ransom and his crew like total crap for breaking the same rules and regulations.... and while that can be disputed because he was taking the lives of aliens to get home, she wiped the existence of everybody from her time line and affected time and space for everyone and everything..... some people might never exist now, the balance of power in different empires and such have changed, etc. etc...... her interference was far worse and on a totally different level.

The show had potential, but I had issue with a number of the characters and how the show overall was constructed.

 

[Anwar]

BSG had its flaws, largely in relation to its mythology and the sloppy motivation of the Cylons, but when it came to the in-fleet drama, the political and social consequences that Voyager didn't address, the show did a very good job.

VOY never had any real political or social issues in the first place TO address. There just weren't any. They weren't some mobile civilization constantly being hunted, they were just one small ship with less than 200 people on-board, most of whom were soldiers. They weren't a democracy, they didn't need one, it's a totally different animal.

Saying NuBSG did stuff better when it simply did things that had no place in VOY to begin with isn't saying much. It's like saying that an eagle flies better than a penguin.

As for future Janeway not preventing VOY from ever going to the DQ in the first place, if she did that then they'd never have been able to put an end to the 8472/Borg war, or stopped the Krenim timeship, or any of the other galactically important stuff they had a hand in.

And Q? Well, she couldn't be sure he wasn't lying. Imagine if they DID have a kid, then Q laughed and said "Gotcha sucker!" and blinked off. Now they're still stuck in the DQ AND she had a superpowered kid to raise who could kill them all if he threw a tantrum.

All their shortcuts to go home were destined to fail, it's the Gilligan syndrome. The problem was that they just shouldn't have DONE those stories in the first place.

 

[kimc]

Many of her decisions and bold actions always seemed to cry out "Hey look at me, I'm the first female captain and I got a bigger pair of balls then any of the other jokers before me"

Now I don't mean to drag this into a sexism issue, but there were many times where she'd go against the grain, simply to go against the grain.... she doesn't take no for an answer from anybody, she has her first officer whipped into doing anything she demands, regardless of how foolish or insane her plan sounds... Even Riker, Spock and Kira had a number of opportunities to change the minds of Kirk, Picard or Sisko..... but no matter what Chakotay said or did, Janeway was always stuck in her way just about all the time and after her forcing her hand to the point of making Chakotay choose between her plan and total mutiny, he'd tuck his tail between his legs and do as she commanded....... and the final episode?

There were times when Janeway listened to Chakotay ("Basics" is one example) and there were times when Kirk or Picard did not listen to Spock or Riker. So what's your point?

 

[exodus]

I think we're starting to blur the line between dismissing Chakotay's suggestions and what responsablities Janeway had as captain.

 

[YARN]

The Galactica didn't have a viper factory, Pegasus did, and they dealt with that issue in the episode Scar when they spent over a month in an asteroid field mining for ore to build new squadrons.

Yeah, and an aircraft carrier would have an F-18 factory on board, right? A ragtag fleet could mine islands in the Pacific for resources to build Super Hornets aboard ship. ROFL

As for Roslin's cancer, the miracle cure wasn't so miraculous, now was it? In that final season Mary McDonnell gave what is possibly the best depiction of someone dying from a terminal illness that you're likely to see in a sci-fi show.

It was a cheap out. She was supposed to be the dying leader. She was supposed to have only a few months to live. She was not supposed to make it to the promised land.

They promised that they were going to kill her, this is what made her character interesting, that she would not be there to see it all the way through. Instead, they give her magic baby Cylon juice to keep her alive until the last season so that they can kill her at the end of the series.

If you like BSG, that's cool. I am not really bashing on BSG or Voyager here, so much as saying how both could have been better.

At any rate, my point is that both shows would have been better if they had "stuck to their" guns with regard to their original premises and rules.

It's not like the movie Castaway featured a hidden convenience store on the island. On the contrary, a few items from the wreck wash up with the protagonist and he is forced to deal with the lean resources he has. What is fascinating is watching the guy work from those resources and to deal with psychological, physical, and spiritual attrition. And yet, I don't think anyone would say that Castaway is an overly "grim" movie.

 

[Char Aznable]

People tend to react rather negatively to shows that are, y'know, bad. Just my experience though.

 

[vas2009]

Equinox [/I]was executed.

I knew your point. You ASKED ME "What's your point?" I explained. No need for a tude.
You said she threatened him with the brig so he backed down. I told you that she said she had a plan and he must have trusted her.
Tuvok has known Janeway alot longer, if that even means anything to you. This whole set of scentences was just to back up the false info you had given.

Also I have never called anyone a sexist.

Take your own advice *said to Brit*
" Either read my posts or don't, but if you're not willing to read them then don't comment on them."

 

[exodus]

People tend to react rather negatively to shows that are, y'know, bad. Just my experience though.

I guess that's why there was such negitivity to TNG by TOS fans and negitivity by TNG fans toward DS9.

 

[vas2009]

People tend to react rather negatively to shows that are, y'know, bad. Just my experience though.

I guess that's why there was such negitivity to TNG by TOS fans and negitivity by TNG fans toward DS9.

Also why reality TV is such a huge hit.

 

[exodus]

People tend to react rather negatively to shows that are, y'know, bad. Just my experience though.

I guess that's why there was such negitivity to TNG by TOS fans and negitivity by TNG fans toward DS9.

Also why reality TV is such a huge hit.

Yep, all you hear is "I Hate Reality TV" and yet shows like Survivor, Amazing Race, The Bachorette, TOP CHEF & the Apprentice are huge successes.

 

[TheGodBen]

Yeah, and an aircraft carrier would have an F-18 factory on board, right? A ragtag fleet could mine islands in the Pacific for resources to build Super Hornets aboard ship. ROFL

Vipers are spaceships, it makes sense to build them in space, and since they operate from and are repaired on battlestars, it makes sense that a state-of-the-art Mercury class battlestar could be refitted to build vipers, if not able to build them as standard. Remember, Pegasus was twice as big as Galactica, it's not just a basic battlestar. Galaxy class ships could probably build their own shuttles too, they were designed to operate outside Federation space for years so it makes sense.

The issue with Voyager is that they made it a small, short-range research ship on purpose, the original intention was that Voyager wouldn't be able to do all the things that the Enterprise could. Could Voyager be refitted to build its own shuttles? Probably. In fact, definitely, we know that they built 2 Delta Flyers. I don't think there would be such a big deal about the shuttles had the writers not acted so recklessly with them, causing them to crash or be destroyed in nearly every outing. They don't act like a crew that's being careful with their shuttles in order to spare their limited resources, they act worse than DS9 and their runabouts.

It was a cheap out. She was supposed to be the dying leader. She was supposed to have only a few months to live. She was not supposed to make it to the promised land.

They promised that they were going to kill her, this is what made her character interesting that she would not be there to see it all the way through.

That's not what made her interesting, what made her interesting was that she was a former school-teacher that rose to the presidency in extraordinary circumstances and she had an extraordinary resolve to lead her people to safety. She didn't stop being interesting when Baltar (temporarily) cured her of her cancer, she was still the same fascinating character as before.

Roslin had cancer for one big reason; Mary McDonnell did not want to commit to a sci-fi series, so RDM created the cancer aspect so that she could be written off in the second season. By season 2, Mary McDonnell's reservations were gone, she wanted to remain on the show, so they gave her a reprieve. RDM hinted at the time that her cancer would probably return some day, it was never intended to be a lasting solution. Frankly, I'm not a fan of this solution to the problem, it did seem rather magical, as you say, but I'm glad she stuck around until the end because she still had a lot to offer the show.

At any rate, my point is that both shows would have been better if they had "stuck to their" guns with regard to their original premises and rules.

There are definitely areas where BSG fell short, I think they focused too much on the military characters and didn't spend enough time with the population of the fleet. But in the end, I think that BSG stuck to their guns better than Voyager. Yeah, it had crap like turning algae into coffee and booze, but it was better realised overall.

I knew your point. You ASKED ME "What's your point?" I explained. No need for a tude.
You said she threatened him with the brig so he backed down. I told you that she said she had a plan and he must have trusted her.
Tuvok has known Janeway alot longer, if that even means anything to you. This whole set of scentences was just to back up the false info you had given.

Apologies, I misread your post.

However, I still take issue with your interpretation of events, they don't match up with what happens onscreen. Be aware, every time I reference a point or event in this thread, I search for the scene on YouTube and base my opinion on that. This is what happened in that scene:

ANKARI: They say they want the humans to die.
TUVOK: A difficult place to start a negotiation.
JANEWAY: Will they understand me?
ANKARI: Yes.
JANEWAY: We didn't do this to you. We're trying to stop the humans who did.
ANKARI: They don't believe you would harm your own kind.
JANEWAY: We have rules for behaviour. The Equinox has broken those rules by killing your species. It's our duty to stop them.
ANKARI: Give us the Equinox. Give us the Equinox! They insist on destroying the ones who are responsible.
TUVOK: We will punish them according to our own rules. They will be imprisoned. They will lose their freedom.
JANEWAY: All right! If you stop your attacks, I'll deliver the Equinox to you!
TUVOK: Captain.
JANEWAY: I know what I'm doing, Tuvok.
TUVOK: These beings would destroy Captain Ransom and his crew.
JANEWAY: What's their answer?
TUVOK: Your behaviour is irrational. We could find another solution.
JANEWAY: I've already confined my first Officer to quarters. Would you like to join him? Well?
ANKARI: They agree.

End scene.

As you can see, Tuvok didn't trust her, she ignored his objection, he accused her of being irrational, she threatened him, and that's the end of it, the next time we see them they're on the bridge. To claim that Tuvok trusted her on this matter is an erroneous interpretation of the scene as far as I'm concerned. It's possible they came to an agreement later in private, but that's not in the episode.

Also I have never called anyone a sexist.

No, but that was the original charge, that people treat Janeway different from Archer even though they both committed torture. I reject that gender has anything to do with it, and to support that I will reference the scene where Roslin airlocks a Cylon, or assists in interrogating Baltar while he's under the influence of a fear-inducing drug. I don't have reservations about either of those even though she is a woman.