Why is ST09's altered timeline a problem?

[Set Harth]

Simpler? What they did was pretty simple, and in fine Trek tradition. The only people who have a problem with it are the canonistas.

Who cares?

Actually, if your gonna call me names, I would prefer the term "canonist" Canonista sort of has a feminine connotation to it. Thanks.

Edit: Not that the "ista" on the end is bad. If I were female, it would be fine (I don't want to offend any female cononists out there, if there are any). But I'm not, so I would prefer an "ist" on the end.

That's Spanish/Portuguese and the "a" ending has nothing to do with gender in this case.

Think "Sandinista". That label does not imply that the subject is female.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Yes, Kirk sprung from his mother's loins a seasoned leader of men. A wayward youth? Perish the thought...

Nope. His years of experience in the original TOS universe made him a seasoned leader by the time he earned his Captain's stripes. NuKirk had none of the expierence necessary to earn his place as Captain. He had zero experience as a leader whatsoever. TOS Kirk went through the Academy, served on starships including the Farragut, rose through the ranks just like everybody else, and was promoted to Captain based upon that experience. NuKirk didn't deserve to be promoted. He had zero experience. That's the difference between NuKirk and OriginalKirk.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Actually, if your gonna call me names, I would prefer the term "canonist" Canonista sort of has a feminine connotation to it. Thanks.

Edit: Not that the "ista" on the end is bad. If I were female, it would be fine (I don't want to offend any female cononists out there, if there are any). But I'm not, so I would prefer an "ist" on the end.

That's Spanish/Portuguese and the "a" ending has nothing to do with gender in this case.

Think "Sandinista". That label does not imply that the subject is female.

Believe it or not, that was an attempt at humor. However, I do prefer the term "canonist". I have been called that so many times before I kind of wear the label as a badge of honor.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

It's rather simple really. The "real" Kirk is a fantastic guy you would be willing to follow into hell itself, and follow all his adventures.

The fake Kirk is an asshole you want to phaser into oblivion.

THIS!!!!

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

So if a black hole was what needed to save Romulus, the Romulans would have done it all on their own and handily succeeded, as I doubt they would miss-calculate the supernova my multiple years, and be so stupid as to try and stop it from going off years it already went off.

In the main universe, Romulus is still very much intact, as is the Romulan Empire.

It's funny how some people, in the name of an arbitrary canon, seem to be constantly thinking up dozens of different reasons why there should be no drama and nothing out of the ordinary should ever happen.

 

[stonester1]

Yes, Kirk sprung from his mother's loins a seasoned leader of men. A wayward youth? Perish the thought...

Nope. His years of experience in the original TOS universe made him a seasoned leader by the time he earned his Captain's stripes. NuKirk had none of the expierence necessary to earn his place as Captain. He had zero experience as a leader whatsoever.

And I would agree with that. I think that thing at the end was one of the flaws of the film that one can't really blow off (or at least I can't). It was stupid. It didn't sink the movie for me, not even remotely. But I still didn't buy it.

But, that said, Pine was every bit as much as Kirk as Shatner was, to me. I have no problem picturing Kirk as someone like that earlier in life. And so do many other writers, as can be found in some of the novels.

I don't think they properly set him up in his evolution to Captain...but oh well, he is now. I hope the writers deal with the subject better in the next film.

 

[Set Harth]

In the main universe, Romulus is still very much intact

It's not pinin'! It's passed on! This planet is no more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet its maker! It's a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed it to the perch it'd be pushing up the daisies! Its metabolic processes are now history! It's off the twig! It's kicked the bucket, it's shuffled off its mortal coil, rung down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible! THIS IS AN EX-PLANET!

 

[Nerys Myk]

I also want to have my cake and it too, I just have a problem reconciling what the writers tell me about a parallel universe being created when there is so much evidence on screen to the contrary.

Just let go of the baggage holding you back.

Soon after I first saw the film I had a little talk with my canonist side, we decided we had two options - freak-out - pull my hair out by the roots while running through the streets naked or reconcile it.

Option one would leave me a bitter old Trekker visiting fan sites trashing my lifelong favorite franchise or dropping it altogether.

Option two would allow me to continue on the journey started so long ago. It was a no brainer, I choose to simply ignore anything which did not canonically add up (I'd done before with Classic Trek) and Keep On Trekking!

I don't mind them violating canon as long as they created a paralell universe, an alternate time line, or it takes place in an already established parallel or different universe...I just can't decide which it is!! Each option seems to raise many questions.

I may have to wait to see how this is handled in the next movie to make my choice.

The beauty is, you don't have to decide. The choice was made for you, by the writers!

 

[Greg Cox]

So if a black hole was what needed to save Romulus, the Romulans would have done it all on their own and handily succeeded, as I doubt they would miss-calculate the supernova my multiple years, and be so stupid as to try and stop it from going off years it already went off.

In the main universe, Romulus is still very much intact, as is the Romulan Empire.

It's funny how some people, in the name of an arbitrary canon, seem to be constantly thinking up dozens of different reasons why there should be no drama and nothing out of the ordinary should ever happen.

Yet object to reset buttons as well . . . .

 

[Nerys Myk]

It's rather simple really. The "real" Kirk is a fantastic guy you would be willing to follow into hell itself, and follow all his adventures.

The fake Kirk is an asshole you want to phaser into oblivion.

The irony of this statment is so thick you'd need a spoon.

 

[ProwlAlpha]

True Fans don't get irony nor sarcasm. You have to spell it out for them.

 

[3D Master]

So if a black hole was what needed to save Romulus, the Romulans would have done it all on their own and handily succeeded, as I doubt they would miss-calculate the supernova my multiple years, and be so stupid as to try and stop it from going off years it already went off.

In the main universe, Romulus is still very much intact, as is the Romulan Empire.

It's funny how some people, in the name of an arbitrary canon, seem to be constantly thinking up dozens of different reasons why there should be no drama and nothing out of the ordinary should ever happen.

Except of course for that annoying fact that I did nothing of the kind, but you know, keep insulting people. I wonder how long it takes for a moderator to warn those that do such... hmm... I'm guessing about forever.

 

[muzzleflash]

*facepalm*

I hope the next Trek movie/series that comes out IS in the prime universe, where Romulus is destroyed, Spock is missing, and spiky mining ships roam the galaxy.

At the beginning, a disclaimer informs the audience that it is in fact of the same continuity as all of Trek.

That'll show em.

 

[DonIago]

^^If you have issues with things that someone is saying, and feel that a Moderator should step in, there's a handy dandy "Notify the Moderator" feature that you can utilize.

Until you choose to exercise this option, you've really got no grounds for complaining that the Moderators haven't stepped in.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Except of course for that annoying fact that I did nothing of the kind, but you know, keep insulting people. I wonder how long it takes for a moderator to warn those that do such... hmm... I'm guessing about forever.

I really think you did, actually, but I'm genuinely sorry if I hurt your feelings, that was not my intent.

 

[ProwlAlpha]

It still won't work, there will be 25 pages of in one topic alone explaining why Trek XII is not in the same universe as the Prime Universe. In fact, 24 and a half pages will be Trek XI haters going on and on about how they were oppressed by the fans of Trek XI and because they were watching Trek since 1915, that they are the true fans.

 

[stonester1]

Exactly. We have this new movie, and the writers making it CLEAR that elements of the Prime TrekU are involved, yet they engage in convoluted rationales about how it really isn't (which boil down to 'the writers were TEH STOOPID). And all the fans who accept the notion are also TEH STOOPID, Kool Aide Drinkers, illogical, blah blah.

As I said, they MUST have it all arranged out in an orderly manner in their heads. It must ALL be explained, must ALL make sense to them. If it doesn't, to them, then something is wrong with it. And all those many, many people who accept it? Must be something wrong with them (TEH STOOPID, K-A DRINKERS).

Because nothing could be wrong with the "true fans".

No way.

 

[DonIago]

^I'm glad you've decided to see reason.

 

[Greg Cox]

It still won't work, there will be 25 pages of in one topic alone explaining why Trek XII is not in the same universe as the Prime Universe. In fact, 24 and a half pages will be Trek XI haters going on and on about how they were oppressed by the fans of Trek XI and because they were watching Trek since 1915, that they are the true fans.

When everyone knows that TOS was actually a shameless reboot of FORBIDDEN PLANET that blatantly violated the canon . . . .

 

[Nerys Myk]

Exactly. We have this new movie, and the writers making it CLEAR that elements of the Prime TrekU are involved, yet they engage in convoluted rationales about how it really isn't (which boil down to 'the writers were TEH STOOPID). And all the fans who accept the notion are also TEH STOOPID, Kool Aide Drinkers, illogical, blah blah.

As I said, they MUST have it all arranged out in an orderly manner in their heads. It must ALL be explained, must ALL make sense to them. If it doesn't, to them, then something is wrong with it. And all those many, many people who accept it? Must be something wrong with them (TEH STOOPID, K-A DRINKERS).

Because nothing could be wrong with the "true fans".

No way.

The writer can say "Red" in interviews and have the characters say "Red" on screen and somewhere a fan will say "Blue!"