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Why is Kirk so revered???

Dar70

Vice Admiral
Admiral
....he has probably the easiest missions of all the Starfleet Captains that have been chronicled so far. Michael Burham seems to be the superhero out of the group of Captians that we have witnessed. She can do anything apparently. Could probably beat the crap out of Kirk,Sisko and Picard all at once. Judging by her onscreen fisticuffs....

But Kirk seems to have the most mundane career out of Picard,Sisko,Janeway,Archer and Burnham. I would rank them so far like this...from hardest to easiest overall careers...
BURNHAM
JANEWAY
SISKO
PICARD
KIRK

Thoughts????:guffaw:
 
Because the in-universe hero worship is a metaphor or substitute for the out of universe fandom of the original Star Trek series. So it was common for writers like RDM or Ira Behr and probably the new writers to express appreciation for the show they grew up with by having their show's characters do it for a previous show's character.
As to Burnham being the most capable, well yeah, maybe if you're judging the modern show on the older show, but that's not really fair. If Discovery is just meant to be a modern extrapolation of the 23rd century then wouldn't you put her up against a Discovery version of Kirk or even against Kelvin Kirk, who would definitely give her a run for her money. I'm sure a TOS version of Burnham would just be doing judo chops and double axe handles like the rest of them and not whatever modern fighting she does on her own show.
 
Because he's the original, and the best.



Seriously, it's no different how in modern times we look back in history at charismatic and accomplished leaders and romanticize/idolize them. Kirk was that first real Starfleet icon.

And...

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And....if you're judging them on career accomplishments....

Kirk:
First Captain to leave the Milky Way Galaxy
First Captain to encounter the Romulans after the original Romulan/Earth War, avoiding a second war
On-Site at the foundational moments of the Organian Please Treaty
Saved Earth from potential destruction by Nomad
Discovered the slingshot time effect
Defeated the Doomsday Machine
Saved Earth during the V'Ger Incident
Defeated Khan, who was in possession of the Genesis Device
Saved Earth during the Cetacean Probe crisis
First Captain to travel beyond the Great Barrier
Key historical figure in the events surrounding the establishment of the Khitomer Accords

Picard might be a surprisingly close #2. He didn't do quite as much as Kirk, though, from a pure Starfleet Career standpoint. He was the first captain to journey to another galaxy. He had a significant role to play in the Klingon Civil War and the political machinations leading up to it. Saved Earth and the history of the Federation from the Borg Queen in the Battle of Sector 001. Saved Earth from Shinzon's Thaleron weapon. I'd say he was part of the first contact with the Ferengi...but that was sort of ret-conned out. He saved the Federation from the neural parasite invasion (but Kirk did something similar in Operation- Annihilate). I don't count the events of ...All Good Things, because that was a situation manipulated and created by Q.

I'm not sure anyone else really compares.

Sisko was a huge war hero during the Dominion War, but he was one of may commanders who had huge accomplishments during that time. Sisko also discovered the Bajoran Wormhole, which was kind of a big deal. Sisko may be #3 on my list.

Archer actually seems to be pretty highly revered, but I think it may have been for his post-Starfleet career and involvement in the foundation of the Federation more than his accomplishments as an explorer and captain.

Burnham hasn't really been in the right circumstances to be historically revered, what with all the cover-ups / classified nature of the USS Discovery's involvement in Galactic History. And, given the time jump at the end of S2, she won't be "revered" by anyone in the bulk time periods either. Otherwise, she has certainly accomplished a lot, but it's also been under other captains for the most part. If you look at Kirk's list, though....he was probably responsible for ending as many existential threats as Burnham. It's just Burnham's adventures are a full season in length. Kirk's were an episode or a movie.
 
Point of order: Burnham didn't become a captain until the end of season 3, in the year 3189. So nobody in the 23rd or 24th century would count Burnham on a list of captains. The only 23rd-century Discovery captains on record are Lorca (impostor), Saru (acting), and Pike (classified). (Plus that poor captain-to-be they left waiting on Vulcan when they answered Pike's distress call.)


I've felt for a while that Discovery missed an opportunity because of its confusion of real-world popularity for in-universe importance. When Saru asked for a list of great captains, Garth of Izar wasn't on it, even though he should've been. After all, his exploits were taught at the Academy when Kirk was there, which would've been several years before DSC. And his madness was fairly recent as of "Whom Gods Destroy." So as of DSC, Garth should've still been regarded as one of the greatest Starfleet captains. I'm hoping that the makers of Strange New Worlds will remember that and show us Garth in his prime. I'd love the chance to see what made him such a great captain before his fall.
 
Kirk: TOS + TAS plus appearances in 10 movies.
Picard: TNG + 4 movies + PIC
Janeway: Voyager + Prodigy
The Sisko: DS9
Burnham: DISCO.
Archer: ENT

Kirk just has more iconic moments. TWOK-TSFS-TVH is also a good tale of a man person confronting their own place in history, their role in the now, and what they really want to do with their life. There isn't anything quite like that elsewhere in Trek, except maybe Picard's retread of the same material much later in life.

Picard, again a wonderfully well rounded character. He's not perfect, and over time the writers have learned to accept and work with those flaws. But he's not a swashbuckler. He doesn't throw punches. He doesn't eat an apple and wink when he's just fucked Khan over.

Janeway: had arguable the most difficult journey of any captain, literally, not figuratively. She's probably "a captain's captain" within the fleet. She's revered but hampered due to, well, VOY.

Sisko: he's kind of a god, so that helps with the revered thing. But DS9 will always be a polarizing show. DS9 was never a show that had a lead character in the way TOS had, or even in the way DISCO does now.

Freeman: Captain Freeman's failed but intensely loyal fight to get her senior staff into a party will continue to vault her a few spaces ahead in any line, in my opinion. She still won't get into the party but she will be able to look in the doorway and hear the DJ.

Burnham: Burnham is a very polarizing character. I happen to like her but in the first two seasons the writers gave her way too much exposition. The Burnham Sermons weren't really all that different from Picard or Kirk's admonishments to aliens about how great Starfleet was, but it felt more didactic, and more long winded. But she's also still a work in progress.

Archer: Archer has all the charisma of soggy oatmeal. He's rude to his XO, he makes horrible decisions at times. His We're Not Gazelles speech will forever free Burnham and future captains of worry about hitting the nadir of speech making and delivery. I hope. Also.. 4 seasons, 2 of them not very good.

Pike: work in progress.
 
Shatner wisely bowed out when the going was good; the same goes for Brooks. Picard is my favorite Captain of the bunch, but some of Stewart's decisions...eh....
 
Because the in-universe hero worship is a metaphor or substitute for the out of universe fandom of the original Star Trek series. So it was common for writers like RDM or Ira Behr and probably the new writers to express appreciation for the show they grew up with by having their show's characters do it for a previous show's character.
As to Burnham being the most capable, well yeah, maybe if you're judging the modern show on the older show, but that's not really fair. If Discovery is just meant to be a modern extrapolation of the 23rd century then wouldn't you put her up against a Discovery version of Kirk or even against Kelvin Kirk, who would definitely give her a run for her money. I'm sure a TOS version of Burnham would just be doing judo chops and double axe handles like the rest of them and not whatever modern fighting she does on her own show.
indeed. I’ve been liking a lot the hand-fighting scenes in season 3: you could really follow them and recognize some actually existing martial arts moves. Truth be told, shatner tried to get as realistic as he could back then, but it’s not as if in the 60s proper fight consultant we’re widely available. Karate was becoming popular due to Jackie Chan, so the scripts called for “karate chops” and Bill did the best he could...and was curious enough to actually train in karate a few years later.
Also to his credit, he managed to insert many Kirk-fu moves in ST3, when the machines that were supposed to change the set in real time failed completely and they were forced to improvise a fist fight.

Archer: Archer has all the charisma of soggy oatmeal. He's rude to his XO, he makes horrible decisions at times. His We're Not Gazelles speech will forever free Burnham and future captains of worry about hitting the nadir of speech making and delivery. I hope. Also.. 4 seasons, 2 of them not very good.
oh gosh, the gazelles speech was baaad.
 
Kirk's reverence seems to be an outgrowth following the miraculous return of Scotty in 2369, as he was barely a figure of note in 2364 (per "The Naked Now"), and since the show has a narrow focus on Starfleet officers, it seems that most of the populace would probably not even recognize his name. He certainly doesn't seem to have any awards or ships or shuttles named after him (until the 32nd century), unlike his predecessor Pike, who is explicitly listed as one of the greatest Captains in Starfleet history. Kirk was operating in the shadow of Pike and April, and his five-year mission adventures probably pale in comparison to there's. Although they were likely romanticized by Scotty and even more so after Kirk's own miraculous return (and second martyrdom) in 2371.

Kirk was famous in his own right, amongst the Klingons and for the events of The Voyage Home (and probably The Motion Picture), but these were contemporary situations forgotten until the nostalgia craze of the 2370s and '80s that we see glimpses of in Voyager and full force in Lower Decks. Kirk also had a much more exciting pre-TOS career, if his awards given in Court Martial are any indication.

Picard seems to be well over Kirk in Earth-saving moments and overall achievements (it helps that his career is twice as long), but in STPicard, he's barely recognized, even at Starfleet Headquarters. By Neo-Discovery days, he's just "some Admiral" mentioned, but that's understandable after such a lengthy length of time.

Archer was President (I guess), but his Presidency might be as consequential as Grant's or more likely Hayes'. His Captaincy is all that's really referenced in Discovery (and never again, but we all know why). No reference to anything he may or may not have done in the Romulan Wars, and TATV implies he didn't do much. Those wars may have wiped away his accomplishments of those first few years as more valiant Captains and more grand Presidents would come to the forefront of history.

Burnham is an unknown to history, probably remembered just for her mutiny (legally wiped from the record), and likely death following the Klingon War.

I think, Sisko has a good cause for being the most historically relevant and praised Captain from amongst all. Janeway has some pop culture bonafides, but she isn't a hero of the people just for being lost in space a few years.

My list of most revered Captains from a perspective of 2399 Earthican:
1. Sisko - Cause of, and solution to, the Dominion War
2. Picard - Did some anti-Borg stuff, I think
3. Kirk - Saved Earth according to the history books
4. Janeway - Popular dramas are being reported of her time in space
5. Archer - old-timey Captain from the long, long ago.
6. Burnham - Who?

Also, it goes without saying that Captain Freeman is one of thousands of minor Captains with no awareness by the general public or even Starfleet insiders. Captain Rios is just a freight hauler and disgraced officer on the periphery. Whatever happens in Strange New Worlds will probably re-elevate Pike to the top of the list (he's already certainly the most famous active Captain in Starfleet... something that has never been true of any Captain in any previous show, except for maybe Archer). Anything that happens in Section 31 will be classified, and Prodigy seems to be low stakes stuff.
 
I think, Sisko has a good cause for being the most historically relevant and praised Captain from amongst all. Janeway has some pop culture bonafides, but she isn't a hero of the people just for being lost in space a few years.
I have to point out that if lt.Tom Paris does “morale-boosting tours” by 2381 and there are voyager plates available in universe Janeway should be quite famous.
 
What do you mean? Do you mean why is he revered 'in-universe' or why is he revered in the fandom?

As for the 'mundanity' of his missions, that's only in retrospect I think. We see them as mundane because we've seen several series, and each one had to build further on the preceding series (in terms of story telling).
 
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