Why does this show seem determined not to acknowledge "Voyager?"

[SimiOne]

The car scenes where a missed opportunity to make an unforced Voyager-Reference.

Raffi " where did you learn to drive a car ?"
Seven " Voyagers pilot had a preference for these vehicles. I attended in one of his Holodeck-Programs. I found it trivial, but now i have to thank him at the next anniversary meeting"

 

[Christopher]

The car scenes where a were a missed opportunity to make an unforced Voyager-Reference.

Raffi " where did you learn to drive a car ?"
Seven " Voyagers pilot had a preference for these vehicles. I attended in one of his Holodeck-Programs. I found it trivial, but now i have to thank him at the next anniversary meeting"

Way too wordy for the middle of a chase scene. Maybe just, "Voyager's holodeck." It would've been worth explaining that to make her knowledge a bit more plausible in-story, since her ability to drive was actually plot-relevant. But the question of who she learned it from and why is unnecessary detail.

 

[hxclespaulplayer]

Some acknowledgement of how she was freed from the Collective, and what she apparently left behind when she became a Ranger.

Seven spent many years destroying others' lives, albeit unwillingly, and she now seems to have more of a handle on emotions. She wants to atone. Didn't Raffi or someone even say something along the lines of "That's Seven, always going around helping people"?

 

[EnderAKH]

TNG didn't have Spock as a regular character, and suddenly being a space vigilante with little to no explanation.

Suddenly? Suddenly? It's been 2 decades since Voyager went off the air. I don't know about you, but I am in a completely different place than I was twenty years ago. I'm now married, I now have a child, I work at a completely different company doing a completely different job, and I don't think any of that happened "suddenly." The only way I would recap how I got from there to here in my life is if I met someone I knew back then who I hadn't seen since, and we were catching up. I just don't think that kind of interaction is realistic in Picard, what are they going to do, run into Ensign Kim (yeah, still an Ensign) in Freecloud, and take time out of the plot when he asks "Hey, whatchya been up to?"

 

[Danja]

No, she wasn't. You're anthropomorphizing inappropriately. Borg drones are not conscious individuals. They're cogs in a machine, neurons in a brain. The Borg Collective is a single consciousness running on all of its drones' brains in parallel. Annika/Seven as an individual contributed nothing to the actions the Collective made her puppeteered body perform over those eighteen years, so it can't be counted as her personal experience.

She's much more soldier than scientist.

She incited a rebellion aboard the Borg Reclamation Peoject. Why couldn't Hugh have done it?

True, Voyager sometimes showed Seven experiencing guilt over "her" actions as a drone, but that was presumably just the way her newly individualized mind was processing and contextualizing the memories she recovered from her time within the hive mind. But that drone wasn't her. It was just a cell in the Collective, no more responsible for its actions than a hair on my finger is responsible for the words I write.

She was a soldier following orders.

Seven had the final comment on the matter when she told Janeway, "You are no different from the Borg."

Suddenly? Suddenly? It's been 2 decades since Voyager went off the air. I don't know about you, but I am in a completely different place than I was twenty years ago.

Same.

I'm not the same person I was in 2001.

 

[Christopher]

She's much more soldier than scientist.

Since when were those the only options? She's an individual, not a category. She worked hard to achieve that, and I don't think it's fair to her to reduce a discussion of her identity to facile labels.

She was a soldier following orders.

No. She was a cell in a body. The Borg are not a nation or a crew, they are a single being. That is the whole point of the concept of a hive consciousness. Your hand doesn't "follow orders" when you move it. Your lungs don't "follow orders" when they respirate oxygen. Calling her a soldier is a ridiculously bad analogy, a fundamental misunderstanding of the entire concept of the Borg.

 

[Danja]

No. She was a cell in a body. The Borg are not a nation or a crew, they are a single being. That is the whole point of the concept of a hive consciousness. Your hand doesn't "follow orders" when you move it. Your lungs don't "follow orders" when they respirate oxygen. Calling her a soldier is a ridiculously bad analogy, a fundamental misunderstanding of the entire concept of the Borg.

What about the drones who rebelled in "Survival Instinct"? Or Unimatrix Zero?

Seven created a mini-collective to bring the insubordinate drones to heel.

 

[gweeps]

Like many things in Star Trek, the concept of the Borg is a fluid one. Makes sense though. I'm sure the idea of a Borg Queen came from the notion of where and how the Borg started.

 

[Sci]

What about the drones who rebelled in "Survival Instinct"? Or Unimatrix Zero?

Seven created a mini-collective to bring the insubordinate drones to heel.

I actually don't fully agree with @Christopher 's characterization of how identity works in the Collective, but those are bad counter-examples, since they involved drones who had been cut off from the Collective and were no longer physically subjected to its mind control.

 

[Christopher]

What about the drones who rebelled in "Survival Instinct"?

They didn't "rebel." They were severed from the hive mind and their individual consciousnesses reasserted themselves, just like Picard or Seven. Once they were reassimilated, their individual thoughts were completely suppressed again, although the mini-collective Seven created between them produced enough interference with the mind control that they were eventually able to break free.

Or Unimatrix Zero?

A freak mutation allowed them to recover self-awareness during regeneration, their "sleep" cycles. But while they were active, their minds were completely suppressed like any other drone. This was all clearly explained. I suggest you rewatch the episodes.

The examples you give are both exceptions that prove the rule. Borg drones operating normally have no individuality or will of their own. That's the whole point of a hive mind. That's why the Borg are evil, because they completely destroy people's identities and reduce them to nothing but interchangeable cogs. This is literally the thing that defines the Borg.

I'm sure the idea of a Borg Queen came from the notion of where and how The Borg started.

The Borg Queen was invented for dramatic reasons, to give Picard a personified enemy he could clash with in the movie, because stories about fighting impersonal forces of nature are dramatically limiting. It's the same reason Doctor Who invented Davros and Stargate SG-1 introduced humanoid Replicators -- because a faceless enemy gets boring after a while.

But the idea was not that the Borg Queen was a monarch or commander, but that she was the embodiment of the entire mind of the Collective, the one body through which all the billions of others merged into the hive mind spoke.

 

[Sci]

I guess you're counting Michael Dorn and Patrick Stewart as the first two (since Colm Meaney was never a principal TNG cast member)?

Yep. And I also didn't count Jeri Ryan's appearances in PIC S1, since she was a recurring guest star rather than principal cast member.

Technically, there would be more if you count TAS as a separate series from TOS -- at least Shatner, Nimoy, and Kelley, and Doohan, Nichols, and Takei if you count them as TOS principals. Although I tend to think of it more as a direct continuation/revival.

Yeah, I just wasn't counting TAS, since its status as a TOS revival makes the comparison meaningless.

And Anson Mount is the newest member of the club, as he was principal in Discovery season 2.

Exactly.

So the list of actors to start as a principal cast member on one Star Trek series and become a principal cast member on another are:

1. Michael Dorn - from Star Trek: The Next Generation to Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
2. Sir Patrick Stewart - from Star Trek: The Next Generation to Star Trek: Picard
3. Kate Mulgrew - from Star Trek: Voyager to Star Trek: Prodigy
4. Jeri Ryan - from Star Trek: Voyager to Star Trek: Picard
5. Brent Spiner - from Star Trek: The Next Generation to Star Trek: Picard
6. Anson Mount - from Star Trek: Discovery to Star Trek: Strange New Worlds

And if the rest of the TNG cast in PIC S3 are principal cast members rather than guest stars, then they would become numbers 7 through 10. And Michael Dorn would become the first actor to serve as principal cast member on three different Star Trek series.

 

[Mudd]

The car scenes where a missed opportunity to make an unforced Voyager-Reference.

Raffi " where did you learn to drive a car ?"
Seven " Voyagers pilot had a preference for these vehicles. I attended in one of his Holodeck-Programs. I found it trivial, but now i have to thank him at the next anniversary meeting"

That's pretty forced, yeah.

 

[BillJ]

1. Michael Dorn - from Star Trek: The Next Generation to Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
2. Sir Patrick Stewart - from Star Trek: The Next Generation to Star Trek: Picard
3. Kate Mulgrew - from Star Trek: Voyager to Star Trek: Prodigy
4. Jeri Ryan - from Star Trek: Voyager to Star Trek: Picard
5. Brent Spiner - from Star Trek: The Next Generation to Star Trek: Picard
6. Anson Mount - from Star Trek: Discovery to Star Trek: Strange New Worlds

I would think Ethan Peck would also qualify. It didn't seem like we saw a whole lot of Rebecca Romijn on DSC.

 

[Sci]

I would think Ethan Peck would also qualify. It didn't seem like we saw a whole lot of Rebecca Romijn on DSC.

IIRC Ethan Peck and Rebecca Romjin were both recurring guest stars on DIS, not principal cast members.

I would categorize them that the second and third actors to start off as recurring guest stars on one Star Trek series and then become principal cast members on another, coming after Colm Meany's move from Star Trek: The Next Generation to Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.

 

[Christopher]

IIRC Ethan Peck and Rebecca Romjin were both recurring guest stars on DIS, not principal cast members.

Correct. At least going by Memory Alpha, only Anson Mount was billed as a main-title regular. Peck was in eight DSC episodes (nine counting voice-only) and two Short Treks episodes, while Romijn was in three DSC episodes and the same two STs.

I would categorize them that the second and third actors to start off as recurring guest stars on one Star Trek series and then become principal cast members on another, coming after Colm Meany's move from Star Trek: The Next Generation to Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.

If you mean recurring in the same role, yeah. Armin Shimerman played three different characters on TNG before getting Quark on DS9. Tim Russ played one role in a TNG episode and a different role in a TNG movie (Generations) before he was Tuvok, so that's a borderline case. (Plus one DS9 character, of course. And McNeill and Philips had both been one-time TNG guests.)

 

[Sci]

If you mean recurring in the same role, yeah. Armin Shimerman played three different characters on TNG before getting Quark on DS9. Tim Russ played one role in a TNG episode and a different role in a TNG movie (Generations) before he was Tuvok, so that's a borderline case. (Plus one DS9 character, of course. And McNeill and Philips had both been one-time TNG guests.)

Good point -- I should rephrase that as "recurring guest stars playing the same character."

 

[Lord Exor]

That's not how the Borg work. The Collective isn't a crew or a nation. It's a hive consciousness, a single mind running in the brains of every drone simultaneously, like cloud computing. The entire Collective is essentially just one "person," and the drones are the "cells" that make it up, with no personality or identity of their own until they're severed from it. The Queen is not a ruler or a commander, just the drone through which the entire Collective speaks, or perhaps a central coordinating node that gives the whole its focus and direction, like the frontal lobe of the human brain. Those cases when it was portrayed otherwise, like in "Endgame" where we saw the Queen issuing verbal orders to drones, were just idiotic. It was like someone's brain having to verbally instruct their fingers to move.

It's been what, 27 years since First Contact rewrote the rules on the Borg? You can't dismiss something that transpired on-screen--such as the Borg Queen verbally commanding drones--as non-canon. The Borg Queen is portrayed as an individual with her own personality and desires in all of her appearances, including Picard. In Picard, she even makes an explicit reference to having an army follow her. The Borg haven't canonically functioned the way you describe for almost 30 years. They're a hive mind, but they do have a hierarchy.

So yes, Seven of Nine being tertiary adjunct of Unimatrix 01 means she was an important drone, and the Queen went so far as to call her a "favorite."

The Borg Queen was invented for dramatic reasons, to give Picard a personified enemy he could clash with in the movie, because stories about fighting impersonal forces of nature are dramatically limiting. It's the same reason Doctor Who invented Davros and Stargate SG-1 introduced humanoid Replicators -- because a faceless enemy gets boring after a while.

But the idea was not that the Borg Queen was a monarch or commander, but that she was the embodiment of the entire mind of the Collective, the one body through which all the billions of others merged into the hive mind spoke.

Do you have a quote from a writer on the "embodiment" part? Because I know for a fact that this isn't what they had in mind when they created her, that's merely how fans have tried to stubbornly rationalize her.

 

[Mudd]

It's been what, 27 years since First Contact rewrote the rules on the Borg? You can't claim something that transpired on-screen--such as the Borg Queen verbally commanding drones--as non-canon. The Borg Queen is portrayed as an individual with her own personality and desires in all of her appearances, including Picard. In Picard, she even makes an explicit reference to having an army follow her. The Borg haven't canonically functioned the way you describe for almost 30 years.

True.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

That's not how the Borg work. The Collective isn't a crew or a nation. It's a hive consciousness, a single mind running in the brains of every drone simultaneously, like cloud computing.

That's not in the slightest what cloud computing is.

 

[Danja]

It's been what, 27 years since First Contact rewrote the rules on the Borg? You can't dismiss something that transpired on-screen--such as the Borg Queen verbally commanding drones--as non-canon. The Borg Queen is portrayed as an individual with her own personality and desires in all of her appearances, including Picard. In Picard, she even makes an explicit reference to having an army follow her. The Borg haven't canonically functioned the way you describe for almost 30 years. They're a hive mind, but they do have a hierarchy.

Thank you.

Seven must still have some pull within the Collective (The Queen allowed Seven to become Queen of the cube even after she aided and abetted Voyager's destruction of the transwarp hub!)