• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Why does this show seem determined not to acknowledge "Voyager?"

What was the catalyst for Seven leaving Starfleet?


  • Total voters
    28
It’s DS9 that has largely been airbrushed out of existence which is baffling and deeply disappointing.

At least we’ve seen references to Quark and Kasidy Yates in PIC, as well as
the skulls of Martok and Dukat, and a reference to General Sisko and Lieutenant General Miles O’Brien in S2
. And there are supposed to be further references to DS9 in S3.

We’ve never heard anyone mention Archer et al. from ENT in PIC or even seen a model of the NX class on someone’s desk. Just the location of Denobula on a map in Admiral Clancy’s office. Not that is PIC’s responsibility to mention ENT or DS9 for that matter, but just pointing out which series has actually been ignored.
 
We’ve never heard anyone mention Archer et al. from ENT in PIC or even seen a model of the NX class on someone’s desk. Just the location of Denobula on a map in Admiral Clancy’s office. Not that is PIC’s responsibility to mention ENT or DS9 for that matter, but just pointing out which series has actually been ignored.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.
 
We’ve never heard anyone mention Archer et al. from ENT in PIC or even seen a model of the NX class on someone’s desk. Just the location of Denobula on a map in Admiral Clancy’s office. Not that is PIC’s responsibility to mention ENT or DS9 for that matter, but just pointing out which series has actually been ignored.

ENT has not been ignored in PIC. Adam Soong is a geneticist arguing in favor of modifying the human genome, which is clearly meant to foreshadow his descendant Arik Soong holding the same views. Also, the prop book of The Teachings of Surak from ENT: "Two Days and Two Nights" was seen on Picard's bookshelf in "The Star Gazer."
 
At least we’ve seen references to Quark and Kasidy Yates in PIC, as well as
the skulls of Martok and Dukat, and a reference to General Sisko and Lieutenant General Miles O’Brien in S2
. And there are supposed to be further references to DS9 in S3.

We’ve never heard anyone mention Archer et al. from ENT in PIC or even seen a model of the NX class on someone’s desk. Just the location of Denobula on a map in Admiral Clancy’s office. Not that is PIC’s responsibility to mention ENT or DS9 for that matter, but just pointing out which series has actually been ignored.

Are all the new Trek shows required to mention Enterprise? Just off the top of my head I can think of these Enterprise references from the other series.

Discovery
  • Season 1, Saru looking up great Starfleet captains for inspiration on his own command style
  • Season 1, Admiral Cornwell mentions Archer and the NX-01 in the season finale as being the last Starfleet crew to visit the Klingon homeworld
  • Season 4, Archer space station as mentioned above
Lower Decks
  • Season 1, Riker mentions Archer "and those guys" as his most recently-viewed holodeck program and even goes as far as to say a few lyrics from the theme song
  • Season 2, Mariner mentions Trip Tucker, who I believe is the first crewmember mentioned by name that wasn't Jonathan Archer
 
Are all the new Trek shows required to mention Enterprise? Just off the top of my head I can think of these Enterprise references from the other series.

Discovery
  • Season 1, Saru looking up great Starfleet captains for inspiration on his own command style
  • Season 1, Admiral Cornwell mentions Archer and the NX-01 in the season finale as being the last Starfleet crew to visit the Klingon homeworld
  • Season 4, Archer space station as mentioned above
Didn't Tilly have an NX-01 snow globe is a season 4 episode?
 
Seems ENT was only kind of acknowledged rather than having a character reappear so it's obviously ignored.

I'd say having Brent Spiner play a Soong ancestor with the same beliefs and specialty as Arik Soong comes pretty close to being a character reappearance. Beyond that, it's pretty hard to have 22nd-century characters appear in a show set in the 25th and 21st centuries. Although I guess they could have Mestral show up.
 
Also, Deep Space Nine references have been made, too. I think people just aren't satisfied because they seem to be less frequent than the other shows and don't directly acknowledge any particular event.

Lower Decks literally went to Deep Space Nine during one of Mariner's flashbacks during the first season.

And...
Discovery had a changeling appear this season
A General Sisko was mentioned this season on Picard.
Sanctuary Districts have been seen and even Chris Brynner's name appears on a newspaper Q is reading.
 
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

ENT has not been ignored in PIC. Adam Soong is a geneticist arguing in favor of modifying the human genome, which is clearly meant to foreshadow his descendant Arik Soong holding the same views. Also, the prop book of The Teachings of Surak from ENT: "Two Days and Two Nights" was seen on Picard's bookshelf in "The Star Gazer."

Are all the new Trek shows required to mention Enterprise? Just off the top of my head I can think of these Enterprise references from the other series.

Discovery
  • Season 1, Saru looking up great Starfleet captains for inspiration on his own command style
  • Season 1, Admiral Cornwell mentions Archer and the NX-01 in the season finale as being the last Starfleet crew to visit the Klingon homeworld
  • Season 4, Archer space station as mentioned above
Lower Decks
  • Season 1, Riker mentions Archer "and those guys" as his most recently-viewed holodeck program and even goes as far as to say a few lyrics from the theme song
  • Season 2, Mariner mentions Trip Tucker, who I believe is the first crewmember mentioned by name that wasn't Jonathan Archer

Didn't Tilly have an NX-01 snow globe is a season 4 episode?

Yes.

Seems ENT was only kind of acknowledged rather than having a character reappear so it's obviously ignored.

I'd say having Brent Spiner play a Soong ancestor with the same beliefs and specialty as Arik Soong comes pretty close to being a character reappearance. Beyond that, it's pretty hard to have 22nd-century characters appear in a show set in the 25th and 21st centuries. Although I guess they could have Mestral show up.

I was clearly talking about references in PIC. Not references in DIS or LD.

We obviously have the Arik Soong ancestor this season. But aside from him and the Surak book and the map in Clancy’s office, there references are few and far between.

And I already said its not PIC’s responsibly to reference ENT. Just pointing out that DS9 wasn’t the ignored series that is claimed to be and has plenty of references scattered about in PIC and will have more in the future. DS9 is more relevant to PIC than ENT since DS9 and TNG are of the same era.
 
Right. Too much franchise media these days -- including the current season of Picard -- is more about paging through old photo albums than telling new stories that the next generation can fall in love with. TNG didn't succeed by constantly rehashing TOS characters and concepts -- indeed, after a brief flirtation in "The Naked Now," it mostly tried to distance itself from TOS as much as possible, to be its own independent thing. And DS9 and VGR mostly did so as well. But the majority of new Trek is overloaded with continuity references. Discovery's first two seasons were flooded with them, though season 3 was largely more original, as of season 4 it finally feels as if it's cast off all the old business and is finally moving the universe forward. Picard's first season felt like progress, building on past elements but extrapolating forward from them in new directions, but now it's become completely an exercise in nostalgia, and today's announcement suggests that season 3 will be as well. Prodigy largely felt like something new and distinct at first, but it's quickly added more references to past Trek.

TNG didn't have Spock as a regular character, and suddenly being a space vigilante with little to no explanation. Imagine if they did, and then went on to revisit Charlie X, with Spock never giving any hint that he'd served on a ship that encountered him before. Would TOS fans not find that a bit distracting?
 
I am assuming this thread is kind of a joke, as they have a freaking VOY character as a regular on the show. They even played the VOY theme one time when Seven was talking to Picard. A DS9 fan has a better case for making this complaint.

Okay, how about this: Quark will join the regular cast of "Picard" in Season 3. But, he is now a devoutly religious priest of a tribble-worshipping cult, living a vow of chastity and sobriety. No hint will be given of how this change came about. We will then have an entire season story arch featuring General Martok, and Quark will not say a word about ever having run into him before. Also, we'll deal heavily with the new changes his mother brought about for Ferengi women, but again, make no mention of Quark having any personal connection to the incident. DS9 fans who raise any questions will be dismissed as obsessive nitpickers.
 
Okay, how about this: Quark will join the regular cast of "Picard" in Season 3.

The show is called Star Trek: PICARD.

It's about Jean-Luc's journey.

Seven was a soldier when she first came aboard Voyager. That's what she did for eighteen years. That's what she excels at.

She:
  • Electrocuted a Hirogen
  • Took an alien hostage in "Scientific Method"
  • Shot a man in Relativity.
  • Choked a man in "Shattered".
I heard talk last season of going into Seven's backstory this season, but I guess there wasn't time (it's either that or Secret Hideout is planning a Seven spinoff).
 
Last edited:
Okay, how about this: Quark will join the regular cast of "Picard" in Season 3. But, he is now a devoutly religious priest of a tribble-worshipping cult, living a vow of chastity and sobriety. No hint will be given of how this change came about. We will then have an entire season story arch featuring General Martok, and Quark will not say a word about ever having run into him before. Also, we'll deal heavily with the new changes his mother brought about for Ferengi women, but again, make no mention of Quark having any personal connection to the incident. DS9 fans who raise any questions will be dismissed as obsessive nitpickers.
I get what you're saying, but I don't feel like we're really missing much from Seven's story that's relevant to the story we're watching.

Seven currently lives her life on a spaceship, always moving, helping people when she can. That's not really all that different to what she was doing the last time we saw her in Voyager, and her change in personality in the 20 years since then is in line with how she was changing during her 4 years on the ship. The main difference is that she's travelling alone now and it seems like that's what her arc in Picard season 2 is about, so I'm assuming we'll be learning more about that.

She had plenty to say about the Borg when she was on the Stargazer, but I don't get the impression she has any strong opinions about Q. They could've given her a line establishing that she's familiar with the Q, but it doesn't really matter what she knows at this point so I'm not surprised they didn't.
 
No reason to weigh a show down with backstory. You're asking them to write the characters as if their characters are concerned with what happened two decades earlier in their lives.

People who are new to the characters- if any - don't need to know. People who are, can infer what they like.

Picard himself dwells on the past because the series is a summing up of his life's experience, in age, and not about the others. And he's old.
 
TNG didn't have Spock as a regular character, and suddenly being a space vigilante with little to no explanation. Imagine if they did, and then went on to revisit Charlie X, with Spock never giving any hint that he'd served on a ship that encountered him before. Would TOS fans not find that a bit distracting?

First off, that's a bad analogy, since Seven never directly interacted with Q in "Q2," only with his son.

Two, I would submit that TNG did something similar with Spock in "Unification," introducing him out of the blue as an ambassador without any "explanation" for his career change from Starfleet. Yes, we can extrapolate that it was an outgrowth of his diplomatic efforts in TUC, but the episode doesn't explicitly tell us that, because it's not relevant to the current story. It also introduces a hitherto-unknown decades-long rift between Spock and Sarek over the Cardassians. It doesn't fill in every bit of the intervening years, because it doesn't need to.

And three, even if TOS fans did find it distracting, they're not the exclusive or even the primary audience. No new series or movie can succeed exclusively by pandering to pre-existing fans, since the percentage of the old audience that's still invested enough (or still alive) to return is too small by itself. Every work of fiction, regardless of its history, should ideally be written in a way that's understandable and satisfying for new audiences, people who are unfamiliar with anything before it. The story needs to work on its own terms. And that means leaving out continuity references that would be confusing to novices or that would get in the way of the story you're telling, even if that means the veteran audience is left wondering about the missing connection. Because connecting dots is not what the story is for. The goal is to serve the needs of the story you're telling now. Anything outside of that is unnecessary.

Look at Joss Whedon's Serenity, the sequel to his Firefly series. Even though it was a direct continuation, he made some slight continuity tweaks to make it flow better as a story. For instance, the opening flashback showed Simon Tam personally rescuing his sister River when the series said he hired others to do it, and showed him learning something about the experiments on River that he didn't know in the series. This did confuse fans of the series such as myself, but it was necessary to make the film work as a standalone story and provide exposition for new viewers.



Seven was a soldier when she first came aboard Voyager. That's what she did for eighteen years. That's what she excels at.

No, she wasn't. You're anthropomorphizing inappropriately. Borg drones are not conscious individuals. They're cogs in a machine, neurons in a brain. The Borg Collective is a single consciousness running on all of its drones' brains in parallel. Annika/Seven as an individual contributed nothing to the actions the Collective made her puppeteered body perform over those eighteen years, so it can't be counted as her personal experience.

True, Voyager sometimes showed Seven experiencing guilt over "her" actions as a drone, but that was presumably just the way her newly individualized mind was processing and contextualizing the memories she recovered from her time within the hive mind. But that drone wasn't her. It was just a cell in the Collective, no more responsible for its actions than a hair on my finger is responsible for the words I write.

The person we know as Seven of Nine was born when she was severed from the Collective in "Scorpion, Part 2." Her personality was formed aboard Voyager starting then. It was shaped by the Borg memories and knowledge stored in her brain, but she had not been a distinct person as a Borg drone, merely one small component of the single "person" that is the Collective.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top