if position reflects rank, and there is only one ship, again a closed system, you can't promote someone with demoting someone else, unless there is a death.
Why does Harry Kim never get promoted?
- Thread starter B. L.
- Start date
Paris is easy. Lt. Stadi died. Tuvok, well, is difficult and I can't explain it
Edit: Yes, I can! Doing a quick search of Dr. Fitzgerald, the original CMO of Voyager at the time Voyager left DS9, was a Lt. Commander. So, that left a Lt. Commander opening that Janeway could've used to explain Tuvok's promotion. But, then again, that would leave a lieutenant opening that she could've used to promote Harry. Unless medical/tactical ranks are interchangeable, but not with operations
Rank structure on Voyager, much like temporal mechanics, give me a headache 
Operations is the messiest of the lot.
TNG: Operations officer is LCDR, third in command on a ship of 1,000 souls.
DS9: Operations chief is a senior enlisted man, equivalent to a Chief Petty Officer or thereabouts.
VOY: Operations officer is a fresh out of academy ensign.
Given that there's no rhyme or reason to what rank the Ops officer is, another reason why Harry could easily have been promoted.
TNG: Operations officer is LCDR, third in command on a ship of 1,000 souls.
DS9: Operations chief is a senior enlisted man, equivalent to a Chief Petty Officer or thereabouts.
VOY: Operations officer is a fresh out of academy ensign.
Given that there's no rhyme or reason to what rank the Ops officer is, another reason why Harry could easily have been promoted.
In the case of O'Brien, I don't think 'Operations' means the same as it does on the Enterprise and Voyager.
It appears more the equivalent of 'Chief Engineer'. All his duties are engineering related. Everyone he has working under him is engineering staff. He's said many times he's an engineer. When on the Defiant, the Engine Room is where he mostly is.
I'm thinking that the difference is due to it being a station and not a starship.
'Operations' on a starship seems more about allocating resources like sensor time and taking care of little details like scanning for a lost cat.
It appears more the equivalent of 'Chief Engineer'. All his duties are engineering related. Everyone he has working under him is engineering staff. He's said many times he's an engineer. When on the Defiant, the Engine Room is where he mostly is.
I'm thinking that the difference is due to it being a station and not a starship.
'Operations' on a starship seems more about allocating resources like sensor time and taking care of little details like scanning for a lost cat.
You regularly see Harry in charge of tactical systems such as firing torpedoes. Consider "Resolutions", which I just watched. When Tuvok laid out his sequence of events, he trusted Harry with that job, essentially putting Voyager's survival in his hands. That's a bit more responsibility than allocating replicator power or hunting down pussycats.
If you trust someone with that kind of responsibility, it suggests a certain confidence in them. A confidence that SHOULD have come with a hollow pip, sometime during the following season.
If you trust someone with that kind of responsibility, it suggests a certain confidence in them. A confidence that SHOULD have come with a hollow pip, sometime during the following season.
I get that, and I agree. I've said many times he should have gotten a promotion.
I was just using those above examples to illustrate the diffetence between the 'Operations' title of DS9 and the other shows by using dialogue from TNG's "Lower Decks".
Regarding "RESOLUTIONS"... Tuvok did have to relieve Harry for being rather insubordinate on the Bridge earlier in the episode. That could have been used as a black mark on his record.
I was just using those above examples to illustrate the diffetence between the 'Operations' title of DS9 and the other shows by using dialogue from TNG's "Lower Decks".
Regarding "RESOLUTIONS"... Tuvok did have to relieve Harry for being rather insubordinate on the Bridge earlier in the episode. That could have been used as a black mark on his record.
Fair enough. Even if we cut Miles out of the equation, it seems to me that if a 30-year Starfleet veteran who should have made Commander years ago can be ops officer, and a spanking new wet behind the ears ensign can be ops officer, then certainly the post can be held by a JG.
Tuvok made it clear in "Resolutions", the decision to contact the Vidiians was his, and he claimed full responsibility. And if Harry's part in the affair gained him a black mark with Janeway despite this, it should have gotten Tuvok a more severe one. But, Tuvok was promoted to LCDR a year later.
To further complicate the rank/position/chain of command matter, O'Brien is a Chief Petty Officer, an enlisted rank, yet he has officers reporting to him. For example, in "Whispers," Ensign DeCurtis clearly works under O'Brien and calls him "sir." O'Brien even says "that's an order" to him at one point. I'm not sure, but I can't imagine that in the real life military an enlisted man would be giving orders like that to a commissioned officer.
A further complication regarding O'Brien.
Virtually the entire time he's on TNG, he wears Lt. pips. He's even been called Lt. once or twice.
But going to DS9 was a promotion, as mentioned by Keiko, but he's only a 'Chief' in rank?
Virtually the entire time he's on TNG, he wears Lt. pips. He's even been called Lt. once or twice.
But going to DS9 was a promotion, as mentioned by Keiko, but he's only a 'Chief' in rank?
Regarding "RESOLUTIONS", Harry was trying to incite issues on the Bridge while on duty, which was why he was relieved. This occured quite a bit before Tuvok actually decided on contacting the Vidiians. So both those situations are separate.
Pretty sure that's a retcon, one of several. Here's a link to his wikia page. Waaaaay down the article is a section entitled "Problematic Rank History". https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Miles_O'Brien?mobile-app=false
For the matter of him vs. Kim vs. Data as ops guys, I'm calling him his indicated rank, a senior chief petty officer (E-8, in current military equivalent).
Theoretically possible, but dubious at best. You're talking about imposing a career destroying punishment on a 23 year old grass green ensign just because he had a disagreement with his CO and didn't know when to drop it.
And the same issue applies: why would Janeway obliterate Harry's Starfleet career for suggesting a course of action, but leave Tuvok untouched for actually doing it?
The Equinox 5 were stripped of rank.
A year later we saw one of the boys as a security guard in Repentance, but as far as we know Janeway had already sent the rest on suicide missions, never to be seen again.
According to the wikia, all five made it back to the Alpha Quadrant safely.
My head canon is that all five had their ranks restored by Starfleet, but it was moot. They were subsequently court martialed for 63 counts of murder and multiple Prime Directive violations. They wound up dismissed from service and incarcerated in the same penal colony Paris had left seven years before.
We didn't see them die, so they must be alive is spurious reasoning, unless there wa a novel that claimed that they lived.
Although, given the options, they should have stayed on the Workforce planet and assumed "versions" of their workforce lives after their real memories came back.
Of course, it's possible that Janeway wouldn't let them stay behind to have a happily ever after, because they are her convicts.
Although, given the options, they should have stayed on the Workforce planet and assumed "versions" of their workforce lives after their real memories came back.
Of course, it's possible that Janeway wouldn't let them stay behind to have a happily ever after, because they are her convicts.
Once, and as it doesn't appear in the script, it's probable that Frakes got confused.
He adlibbed and "created" a character name a time or two as well (Tracee Lee Coccoo's character "Jae", whom Jeri Taylor appears to have intended to be called Gretchen Naylor).
The first episode dialogue specifically written for O'Brien (rather than "generic pilot"/"security guard"/"Transporter Chief") was in Family which identifies him as a Chief Petty Officer, although this wasn't reflected in his uniform change until a season later to the hollow pip of either a "warrant officer" or "chief petty officer" (despite this rank pin having existed for two years previously).
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Considering that they had to know that only disgrace and court martial awaited them back on Earth, I would agree with you. And given that Janeway regarded them as crew, albeit stripped of rank and heavily supervised, it's possible that she would have allowed them to leave.
There's frustratingly little information on them, truth be told. Given that one of them was working security (and likely had access to weapons), it suggests that he, at least, had regained at least some trust.
Point is... they arrived, and assumed the very bottom of the pecking order. Some characters, like Lt. Durst, died. So, Voyager was not a pure closed system. And even if it had been, Starfleet has provisions for good officers to receive field promotions. It's strangely telling that Janeway gave out three times more reductions than she did promotions.
If you start looking for it, I think you'll find episodes for almost any main cast member stepping way out of line (without an excuse such as an alien presence). Kim isn't really worse than most of the other main cast.
Honestly, to channel my inner Seven, "The Disease" is irrelevant. It took place well into the fifth season of Voyager. Harry's collar should have had a hollow pip on it by the time Seven joined the cast.
Remember "Non Sequitur", a second season episode. Despite working a staff job, Harry had distinguished himself enough it was very possible for him to make lieutenant after a mere eight months. And in "Twisted", Janeway told Harry that he had exceeded her expectations, and Janeway is not a woman who sets the bar low. If Harry exceeded her expectations, he more than met any reasonable criteria for promotion. And since two people (Tuvok and Tom Paris) received promotions, it made no sense whatsoever to deny a third when it was clearly well deserved.
Despite years of desperation scrambling by assorted fans to justify Harry's lack of advancement, there is simply no rational justification for it. It was the result of incompetent performance by the writing/production staff.
Remember "Non Sequitur", a second season episode. Despite working a staff job, Harry had distinguished himself enough it was very possible for him to make lieutenant after a mere eight months. And in "Twisted", Janeway told Harry that he had exceeded her expectations, and Janeway is not a woman who sets the bar low. If Harry exceeded her expectations, he more than met any reasonable criteria for promotion. And since two people (Tuvok and Tom Paris) received promotions, it made no sense whatsoever to deny a third when it was clearly well deserved.
Despite years of desperation scrambling by assorted fans to justify Harry's lack of advancement, there is simply no rational justification for it. It was the result of incompetent performance by the writing/production staff.
