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Why does Abrams keep playing it safe?

True, that was obviously a wrong statement by me as there are plenty of more fanwankish episodes. Among the movies STXI is the one which tries most direly to connect itself to the rest of the franchise.
About ENT, in my opinion the series was often good when it focused on genuine 22nd century stuff. I also think this is true in the case of STXI which works in my opinion not because of the 24th century background and the fate stuff. Isn't the great thing about the characters, at least in the case of Uhura and Chekov, that they differ from the first version?
 
True, that was obviously a wrong statement by me as there are plenty of more fanwankish episodes. Among the movies STXI is the one which tries most direly to connect itself to the rest of the franchise.
About ENT, in my opinion the series was often good when it focused on genuine 22nd century stuff. I also think this is true in the case of STXI which works in my opinion not because of the 24th century background and the fate stuff. Isn't the great thing about the characters, at least in the case of Uhura and Chekov, that they differ from the first version?
I don't know. It's tough to say, because Star Trek is such a unique animal compared to other franchises. Trek has been around for almost 50 years, yet up until STXI, we never had more than one actor trying to tackle the same character. (Except, of course, in one-off cases like "Turnabout Intruder" or "Rascals" where things were supposed to be 'off'.)

No other franchise I can think of is in that situation. From Dr. Who to Superman, from James Bond to Batman, all of the great long-lived mega-franchises have had multiple actors interpret the role. STXI is our first experience, though, of having to accept someone different as Kirk or Spock or McCoy. So it's harder to judge whether it was done 'right'.

When Christopher Reeve played Superman, had they written a different character than when George Reeves played him? Or was it the same character being interpreted differently by a different actor? (Probably more accurate to say they played different Clark Kents than different Supermans, but that's another matter.) Similarly, when Chris Pine played Kirk, was he playing a different character from William Shatner's Kirk, or was he taking the same character and interpreting it differently?

I'm a firm believer that if you're gonna use the same characters, then they have to be the same characters. Sure, every actor who plays a role is going to interpret it differently. But that's different from fundamentally changing who the character is.

To go back to my Superman analogy, I've had no problem with George Reeves vs. Christopher Reeve vs. Tom Welling vs. Brandon Routh, etc. But I'm very worried about the upcoming film, because they've decided they want Superman to be dark and conflicted and brooding. They're doing that because it's the current trend in superheroes, of course. But that's not who Superman is. And if you don't want to be true to who Superman is, make a different movie with a different character.

Similarly, I don't expect Chris Pine to play Kirk the same way William Shatner did. But you still need to be true to the essence of who Kirk is. Otherwise, you might as well do Star Trek: The Fifteenth Generation and introduce a new captain.
 
It'll come to me...

I seem to recall many episodes where Spock's Vulcan side played a major part in many episodes.

Kirk: What makes you so right and a trained psychiatrist wrong?
Spock: Because she feels. I don't. All I know is logic.

Decker: You're bluffing.
Spock: Vulcans never bluff.

Spock: Physical reality is consistent with universal laws. Where the laws do not operate, there is no reality. All of this...is unreal.

Spock: I've noticed that about your people, Doctor. You find it easier to understand the death of one than the death of a million. You speak about the objective hardness of the Vulcan heart, yet how little room there seems to be in yours.
McCoy: Suffer the death of thy neighbor, eh, Spock? You wouldn't wish that on us, would you?
Spock: It might have rendered your history a bit less bloody.

And this movie's Spock?

Kirk: It's logic Spock. I'd thought you'd like that.
Spock: No, not really. Not this time.

Or from the book...

Spock: I just lost my mother. To hell with logic!

Kill the helpless bad guys, eh Spock?
 
Spock's reached the same conclusions it took Spock Prime 15 more years (the meld with V'Ger) to. As he says in STVI, "logic is the beginning of the road to enlightenment"

Was Spock any less Spock in ST's II - VI?
 
^ This is sort of my point, though, in my long-winded post above. If NuSpock begins his journey having reached the same conclusion that was the entire point of Spock Prime's long journey, then are they the same character?
 
I don't know. It's tough to say, because Star Trek is such a unique animal compared to other franchises. Trek has been around for almost 50 years, yet up until STXI, we never had more than one actor trying to tackle the same character.

Basically true, although the nitpicker in me has to bring up the two Saaviks. :)


As for always playing the same character the same way, there's a wide spectrum of possibilities there. What about Cesar Romero vs. Heath Ledger? Both perfectly valid interpretations of the Joker (depending on which comics you read), but would you say they were playing the same character?

I think there can be a bit more latitude than some might believe . . . .
 
Spock: No, not really. Not this time.
I like the movie but this line is simply unbearable. NimoySpock might be all about allowing good emotions while suppressing the bad ones but EmoSpock just follows the advice of his father and utters his cold desire for revenge ... in a movie which tries to emulate TWOK to some degrees.
 
I don't know. It's tough to say, because Star Trek is such a unique animal compared to other franchises. Trek has been around for almost 50 years, yet up until STXI, we never had more than one actor trying to tackle the same character.

Unless you count New Voyages/Phase II.

While unofficial, I totally bought into other actors playing the parts of ALL of the TOS characters when I started watching those fanfilms.

And so have thousands of others.
 
I know this thread is old and this has probably been brought up, but how is Abrams playing it safe when he imploded Vulcan? Also, we know nothing about the new film to make any assumptions. All we have are rumors and speculation.
 
I know this thread is old and this has probably been brought up, but how is Abrams playing it safe when he imploded Vulcan? Also, we know nothing about the new film to make any assumptions. All we have are rumors and speculation.

As a matter of fact that's ALL we have and yet people are taking it to the extreme.
 
Abrams has the entire Star Trek universe at his disposal and all he can do is rehash old villains? He could go anywhere he wants but he seems to keeping playing it safe. All right, first movie I guess sticking with a classic villain makes sense to draw in old fans, but relaying on old material is what drove Star Trek into the ground in the first place. I want to explore strange new worlds not the worlds we explored 30 years ago. You can dress it up all you want but it's still the same old same old. Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?
Khan is a character, not a story. He can be put into all sorts of different situations - you know, just like Kirk and Spock.

As for "playing it safe," the last movie blew up Romulus and Vulcan, killed Kirk's father and Spock's mother. We visited a new world full of gigantic ice monsters (albeit one with a familiar name) and rewrote history. That's not quite the generic rehash template.

thank you! I don't get why that is so hard for some Trekkies to understand. If they can tell new stories with Kirk and co, they can do the same thing with Khan or any other old character they choose to use.

I bet you'll find there's more than one way to tell a Khan story... who has only been used twice in all canon - Which can't be said about Klingons.
 
^ Why would you want to, though? What would be the value of that? Why not do something with a completely original character?
 
Khan's story has been closed and if you tell it again it is still closed on one end ... and advocating that his setup and background should be changed boils down to creating a new character and simply using the name of Khan to sell him.
While Klingons have definitely been overused they are not a character with a closed story but an alien species which you can use for various stories.
 
I usually like to know what a story is, before I criticize it, where by "usually" I mean "always". Khan is a character, not a story; I like that. And, we still don't know whether he's even in STXII.
 
^ Khan is a character who is closely tied to his accompanying story. In fact, should you change the story, you change the character and, as horatio83 point out, if you change the story, you change the character. I would go so far as to argue that it is impossible to re-use the character of Khan without either (a) re-telling the same story in a new setting or (b) creating a new character with a new backstory that you just happen to put the name "Khan" on. I don't have to see a script for a new Khan story to know that's true.

I could take Harry Mudd, and have the events of "Mudd's Women" or "I, Mudd" not take place, and still have the same basic character of Harry Mudd. Take away Khan's establishing story and you don't have Khan any more.
 
About the only things carved in stone about Khan is that he is a deposed superman who once ruled part of the world but then was Buck Rogersed into outer space. From there, he could go pretty much anywhere and do anything (though to stay in the sort of character we expect, we expect him to do villainous things). It's pretty open ended - I get that from the part about him being sent out into space.

Again, this is all assuming this is even relevant to STXII.
 
I guess I just don't get why the idea of doing a reboot universe version of Khan would be interesting or appealing. "Hey, it's Khan, only different!"

This is only the second movie in the reboot series, and the first movie was establishing the alternate universe version of our hero characters. To then do the second movie with a reboot version of a classic Trek villain, even if done sufficiently differently from the original story, would feel like the writers are creatively bankrupt and can't do anything truly original. Even if Khan were used in a totally new and different story, the fact that you have a reboot Khan facing a reboot Kirk, Spock, McCoy, etc., would make it feel like they're already out of ideas by the 2nd movie.

(As you rightly point out, we don't know if this has any relevance to STXII or not. Still, I think it's interesting to discuss.)
 
Provided they use Khan at all, I'll be far more concerned with whether or not they tell a good story with a character whom is essentially recognizable than with the mere fact of the reuse itself. And I'll factor my opinion of the story into any decisions regarding creative bankruptcy.

Romeo & Juliet's been done a thousand times, and yet there are still creative ways to retell it. I think Khan can survive a single reboot.
 
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