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Why does Abrams keep playing it safe?

Off the top of my head, any number of the main Cardassian characters would qualify, including the guy from Duet whose name escapes me at the moment. His success and happiness are flustered by tragic flaws within himself.
What personal flaws? They guy was ashamed of the crimes he witnessed in the camps so he posed as a war criminal. He did something heroic and paid for it with his life. No tragic fall-down, no tragic flaws.

Watch the episode again. His tragic flaw is that he took part in an evil system and didn't try to stop it. Imagine a secretary working in Goebbels' office. Sure, she isn't responsible personally for any deaths, but as long as she sits there and does nothing, as long as she literally doesn't risk her life to get out of there, she's passively accepting the system. His tragic flaw, unfortunately, is that he's a Cardassian.

His other tragic flaw, paradoxically, is that he felt personally guilty for the crimes of his people. This guilt is what led him into a life of lies, even though he was compassionate enough to feel horrible about what the Cardassians were doing.

He's a complex character, but if he had been either strong enough to run away from the system entirely, or to realize he wasn't personally responsible for it, his insanity and then his demise would have been avoided. His flaw is that he stuck himself firmly in the middle - feeling personally guilty about the crimes, and yet being too cowardly to get up and run away from them.

Anyway, that character in particular is not the point. The point is, there are many more characters in Star Trek that are genuinely tragic than that guy from Voyager.
 
His tragic flaw, unfortunately, is that he's a Cardassian.
Lovely junk of racism.

He's a complex character, but if he had been either strong enough to run away from the system entirely, or to realize he wasn't personally responsible for it, his insanity and then his demise would have been avoided.

You might wanna think twice about calling a character who has far more guts than any of us a madman.

Goebbel's office? By your inflationary and wrong application of the word every whistleblower or resistance fighter would be a tragic character.

Marritza's plan was to be punished for the crimes of his people and despite the little twist at the end, i.e. being the victim of a hatecrime instead of standing on trial, it basically worked. No tragic character intentionally sets a course towards his end.
 
His tragic flaw, unfortunately, is that he's a Cardassian.
Lovely junk of racism.

He's a complex character, but if he had been either strong enough to run away from the system entirely, or to realize he wasn't personally responsible for it, his insanity and then his demise would have been avoided.

You might wanna think twice about calling a character who has far more guts than any of us a madman.

Goebbel's office? By your inflationary and wrong application of the word every whistleblower or resistance fighter would be a tragic character.

Marritza's plan was to be punished for the crimes of his people and despite the little twist at the end, i.e. being the victim of a hatecrime instead of standing on trial, it basically worked. No tragic character intentionally sets a course towards his end.

"Lovely junk of racism"? Who are you accusing of being racist? Me? Cardassians are a fictional race. Othello's tragic flaw is that he's black, which is not a fictional race. And Shylock's tragic flaw is that he's Jewish. Plenty of literature is racist, including Shakespeare's.

My "inflationary" use of what word, insanity? I was referring to his living a lie. Perhaps the word is too strong. I am not making social statements here; I'm doing literary criticism. Yes, in fiction, many resistance fighters and whisteblowers are tragic characters. In Shakespeare's Julius Ceasar, there are at least two resistance fighters who are tragic characters. In fact, Marlon Brando plays a very famous tragic whisteleblower. And yes, that is tragic in the sense of the word that Shakespeare uses it.

You are also incorrect that "no tragic character intentionally sets a course towards his end." Plenty do. Many of the Greek tragic characters deliberately set out to destroy themselves. The tragedy is that they choose this course, when they could have chosen otherwise.

The only point I'm making here is that your initial blanket statement about there being only one tragic character in all of Star Trek is an overstatement of the case. Even in Shakespeare, there are different sorts of tragic characters. There is no one single dictionary definition, whatever Wikipedia says. Even Romeo and Juliet are tragic characters, and those tragic flaws may not even be within them, but within their families. It depends on how you interpret the play.

And please, don't start getting offended (pretending to get offended?) by the way I talk about fictional characters. I do not discuss fictional characters in the way I would describe real life people. I'm allowed, for example, to be racist against Ferengi if I choose to be - hell, the writers usually are. They don't exist. No one gets hurt. See what I mean?
 
Iago does not set Othello up because he is black so stick your sick shit back where it belongs to. Shylock's flaw is his desire for money and revenge, not his Jewishness. Race or religion are not flaws except to sick racists.
Shakespeare is not racist, only your reading of him is. The great thing about the Bard (if you are true to him and do not pervert his work like the folks over here did it with the Merchant seventy years ago) is that he is totally unideological and portrays Shylock and Othello first and above all as individuals.
 
Iago does not set Othello up because he is black so stick your sick shit back where it belongs to. Shylock's flaw is his desire for money and revenge, not his Jewishness. Race or religion are not flaws except to sick racists.
Shakespeare is not racist, only your reading of him is. The great thing about the Bard (if you are true to him and do not pervert his work like the folks over here did it with the Merchant about 70 years ago) is that he is totally unideological and portrays Shylock and Othello first and above all as individuals.

My "sick shit"? Why are you talking to me like this? Because you disagree with my literary interpretation of a play written 5 centuries ago? Are you even allowed to talk to me like that on this board? If you are, I suggest this board needs better moderating. And who are you accusing of being a "sick racist"? Me, again? Because I believe the play's message to be racist? How does that make ME racist, exactly?

In any case, of course Merchant of Venice is an Anti-Semitic play. Yes, Shylock is characterized as an individual, because Shakespeare's a great writer of people, but Shylock is still guilty of being Jewish, above all else, and he suffers the nasty fate that he does for that sin of Jewishness. And if you really want to know what Shakespeare thinks of black people, feel free to read the character of Morocco in Merchant of Venice - pure racist humour. That doesn't make ME, the literary critic, a racist or Anti-Semite. The themes of the play are, I believe, racist and anti-Semitic.

Shakespeare non-ideological? Where did he live, on a cloud? Of course he's got ideologies and politics. He's a human being, just like anybody else. You and I are welcome to disagree on what those politics are, if you like, but not if you're going to make personal attacks. I just believe you to be wrong on your interpretation of Shakespeare's lily-white perfection as an angel among men, and your narrow interpretation of the definition of "tragic character."
 
Lovely junk of racism.


You might wanna think twice about calling a character who has far more guts than any of us a madman.

Goebbel's office? By your inflationary and wrong application of the word every whistleblower or resistance fighter would be a tragic character.

...

Iago does not set Othello up because he is black so stick your sick shit back where it belongs to. Shylock's flaw is his desire for money and revenge, not his Jewishness. Race or religion are not flaws except to sick racists.
Shakespeare is not racist, only your reading of him is. The great thing about the Bard (if you are true to him and do not pervert his work like the folks over here did it with the Merchant seventy years ago) is that he is totally unideological and portrays Shylock and Othello first and above all as individuals.
(emphasis mine)

horatio83, you need to dial back the rhetoric and the animosity a few notches. There is absolutely no call for putting words in Ubik's mouth and absolutely no call for making accusations or insinuations of racism.

You spoke earlier in the thread of how someone else could "hardly expect a friendly response," but as far as I can see, the source of a lot of the unfriendly in this thread lately has been you. I'd really like to see you dropping the hostile attitude, the condescension and the inflammatory language, and I'd like not to be put in a position of having to call you on this again.

If you are unable to manage that consistently, I can only suggest that you refrain from posting in this forum until such time as civility becomes achievable for you on a regular basis.
 
In any case, of course Merchant of Venice is an Anti-Semitic play.
Of course it isn't. The only ones who twisted Merchant into an antisemitic piece were the nazis. Naturally one can, like the nazis, always "read into" a play one's own opinion but the decent stagings of the Merchant who are true to the text acknowledge the complexity of Shylock who is not an antisemitic character at all. Gee, over here the seminal portrayal of the character is the one by Kortner, a Jew. He'd hardly have staged the piece or played the main character if it were antisemitic.
 
The great thing about the Bard... is that he is totally unideological and portrays Shylock and Othello first and above all as individuals.

You're joking right? Shakespeare totally without ideology? That must be why he turned Banquo into a complete saint (as the Stewarts were said to be descendants of Banquo) or characterized Joan of Arc as a demonic figure.

Also, of course, Shakespeare didn't invent the tragic character.
 
Of course he always kissed the royal ass but your example with Banquo is a trivial one at beast, you only learn about it once you read some background stuff. The propaganda in his plays never damaged them.

With unideological I meant that Shylock is not first and above all a Jew for Shakespeare. Of course he is clearly a Jew in his social role but everything that is interesting about the character has nothing to do with his Jewishness. The beauty of Shakespeare is that he always looks at the individual.
If there is any structural problem with Shakespeare it is perhaps precisely this hyper-individualism and the lack of attention on more systemic issues, the acknowledgement that everybody is to a large degree a social creature which you might get e.g. in East Asian theatre and cinema.
 
In any case, of course Merchant of Venice is an Anti-Semitic play.
Of course it isn't. The only ones who twisted Merchant into an antisemitic piece were the nazis. Naturally one can, like the nazis, always "read into" a play one's own opinion but the decent stagings of the Merchant who are true to the text acknowledge the complexity of Shylock who is not an antisemitic character at all. Gee, over here the seminal portrayal of the character is the one by Kortner, a Jew. He'd hardly have staged the piece or played the main character if it were antisemitic.

You are aware, I hope, that the Nazis did not invent anti-Semitism. In fact, throughout Shakespeare's life, and for centuries surrounding it, Jews were not even permitted to enter Great Britain. It was illegal to be a Jew and to enter the country. Shakespeare very likely never even met a Jew. All he knew about Jews was what people on the street talked about, and what they talked about were all the most horrific Jewish stereotypes you can imagine. In fact, one of the most popular plays at the time in England was The Jew of Malta, by Marlowe, a play with a horrible, villainous Jew at the centre of it. So, for you to suggest that Shakespeare, in the centre of a completely anti-Semitic time and place, was somehow a beacon of liberality and understanding toward a race of people he had never even met, is just a little far-fetched.

Next, you misread your history if you believe it to be a tragedy. It was originally conceived as a comedy. It's actual title is "The Comical History of the Merchant of Venice Or Otherwise Called The Jew of Venice." Shylock is not the tragic hero or victim of the play, but the comical villain. At the end of this comedy, the Christians win, get married, and have an entire act and a half to themselves to sit around underneath the moonlight (with Shylock's stolen and converted daughter with them) discussing love and romance and how sweet life is, just like the last act of any number of Shakespeare's other comedies. In this comedy, the good guys, the Christians, win, and the ridiculous and clownish Shylock, the vicious Jew, is essentially destroyed, much to the happiness of all the other characters, his own daughter, and to the contemporary audience at the time, none of whom had the least bit of knowledge of or sympathy for Jews, never having met any, most likely. This play was treated as a comedy, played as a comedy, and written about as a comedy, all the way through the next few centuries. If you don't believe me, read historical theatre criticism. The idea of Shylock being someone we're supposed to feel sorry for is a fairly new concept.

It was only with the 20th century that critics began to try to re-interpret the play as a tragedy. And it does indeed work very well as a tragedy (I highly recommend the Al Pacino version, an excellent and sympathetic performance.) But that is because it is the only way to make the play palatable to a modern audience. The problem is, to a modern audience, the play just isn't funny. All the jokes come from making fun of Shylock's Jewishness (go back and reread the play - all their attacks on him have to do with his Jewishness, and his perceived Jewish characteristics.) As a result, it no longer works as a comedy, for obvious reasons. As a tragedy, however, Shylock becomes one of the best tragic characters in English literature.

But that was by no means the original intention. We have to keep that in mind when talking about the play. Yes, of course the character is complex. So is Richard III. So is Iago. All his villains are complex, and even, to a certain extent, sympathetic. But they're still villains.
 
Shakespeare lived in antisemitic times (there was a small Jewish community in London by the way) but this does not imply that his art is antisemitic. Shylock's monologue is enough to debunk this ridiculous notion. The character is not an antisemitic stereotype, if he were the play would have long been dead and Jews like Kortner would have hardly ever wanted to play Shylock.
About the historical perception, yes, the piece has been initially treated as comedy but this started to change far earlier. You are two centuries too late, Rowe viewed is as revenge tragedy and Heine as tragedy.
Yet in my opinion these stupid categorizations are of little use as Shylock is neither a villain nor a tragic hero. Being unable to make up your mind about whether he is a bad or good guy while you read or watch is after all the very beauty of the play.


So the difference among us is that I view early comedic interpretations as inherently false whereas you view modern views as reinterpretations of the play.

Perhaps Hamlet can help us out here. The dominant view of Hamlet has been the one of the action-inhibited intellectual which is kind of natural as intellectuals focused on this aspect of Hamlet. He is a mirror to them just like all the other young characters in the play are a mirror to Hamlet. We all know how this looks on stage as well as all saw Olivier.
But the great thing about Hamlet is that he is, just like Shylock, not a character whom you can nail down. His madness is faked to create a space of freedom for himself but from time to time there is a glimpse of real madness. He doesn't do anything but when he finally acts he does not even regret having accidentally stabbed Polonius.
So I have to ask, is a contemporary view upon Hamlet that takes into account all these internal inconsistencies of the fellow and his physicality during the later parts of the play really a modern reinterpretation or is it actually closer to the text than earlier receptions which focused mainly on Hamlet the intellectual?
 
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In other words, she wasn't letting her emotions get in the way of performing her duties as a Starfleet officer? Sounds like she was acting correctly to me.

Too bad she didn't act that way when there was a crises at hand. How many times did she leave her station because something was going on with Spock? I counted four times. Did she really need to be in the transporter room when Spock was leaving and coming back? Heck, giving Chekov her communication assignments makes more sense because in that very scene when Kirk tells Chekov to hail the Narada, you can see Uhura making a dash back towards her station. That kind of work behavior is not only unprofessional, but it also showcases that Uhura doesn't really have a place on the bridge if she won't perform simple tasks that her position calls for.

In a nutshell, you seem to be very happy with Uhura neglecting her duties during a crises as long as she is professional when there isn't one.

Yeah, because in Star Trek's long history, ship's crews always acted in a professional manner...

You know what? I think I'm going to just stop trying to reply to your posts. You obviously haven't learned that this movie was supposed to be fun. Instead you've chosen to spend the last four years completely nitpicking it to death instead of just enjoying it for what it was, and being thankful that it restored everyone's faith for the future of Star Trek production.

Remember what I said about Prometheus?
 
You miss Homm's point which is not that these totally natural changes suck but that the lack of a clear-cut reboot which provokes these question among some fans sucks.

But... for every fan who hates the direction taken by the writers - embracing the old continuity and yet allowing their movies to branch off - there are lots of us who love that this happened. For us, it doesn't suck.

That's cool but it's still playing it safe.

Not playing it safe would be making your reboot an actual reboot, not a "kinda sorta reboot but not really because it has a convoluted time travel plot that has leonard NIMOY SO PLEASE WATCH TREK FANBASE WE DONT WANT TO LOSE YOU!!!!"
 
Not playing it safe would be making your reboot an actual reboot, not a "kinda sorta reboot but not really because it has a convoluted time travel plot that has leonard NIMOY SO PLEASE WATCH TREK FANBASE WE DONT WANT TO LOSE YOU!!!!"

And maybe they would have lost me. I was bitterly disappointed in ST V. I almost drifted away altogether during ho-hum Season One DS9. I almost drifted away in repetitive Season One Voyager. I almost drifted away when my favourite character, Data, got killed off in "Nemesis". I almost drifted away in (mostly boring) Season Two Enterprise.

Bad Robot's take on "Star Trek" was even better than I imagined. If that's playing it safe, it's my kind of playing it safe. I'm not ready for a complete reboot. (Ditto the new "Amazing Spider-man"; enjoyable film, but absolutely no need to reboot, it would have made a great Movie #4 even with all the recasting.)

If an idiot friend hadn't deliberately spoiled me re the destruction of Vulcan in ST 2009 - to "teach me a lesson" for being so open-minded and positive about JJ Abrams' then-upcoming project - it would have been even more intense and surprising.

For newcomers, it's not obvious that they've missed 40+ years of ST. I know many new fans who were delighted they had so many boxed sets of DVDs to explore after seeing one fresh new movie. (A bit the way I felt seeing TMP in 1979, also a not-quite reboot: suddenly I had about 70 unseen TOS episodes, 10 TAS episodes and all the Bantam and Ballantine books to dig around and find.)
 
You miss Homm's point which is not that these totally natural changes suck but that the lack of a clear-cut reboot which provokes these question among some fans sucks.

But... for every fan who hates the direction taken by the writers - embracing the old continuity and yet allowing their movies to branch off - there are lots of us who love that this happened. For us, it doesn't suck.

That's cool but it's still playing it safe.

Not playing it safe would be making your reboot an actual reboot, not a "kinda sorta reboot but not really because it has a convoluted time travel plot that has leonard NIMOY SO PLEASE WATCH TREK FANBASE WE DONT WANT TO LOSE YOU!!!!"

In the Age of Reboots, I think a straight reboot could qualify as playing it safe.
 
In the Age of Reboots, I think a straight reboot could qualify as playing it safe.

Exactly. That, and the writers were/are devoted ST fans themselves - and they didn't want a total reboot either. They even supplied story ideas for tie-in 24th century-based comics for IDW ("Countdown") and "Wired", showing how their new movie was connected to the franchise we already knew.
 
Really. Exactly how is a clean reboot specifically "less safe" than a dirty reboot?
You piss off more fans when you make a clear cut.

I have no problem with this semi-reboot as long as people are honest and call it what it is. There is a lot of pretense that this Trek is so new and so totally different than everything that has come before whereas it is actually the Trek story which tries more harder than any other to tie itself to the rest of the franchise.
 
I have no problem with this semi-reboot as long as people are honest and call it what it is. There is a lot of pretense that this Trek is so new and so totally different than everything that has come before whereas it is actually the Trek story which tries more harder than any other to tie itself to the rest of the franchise.
Okay, I agree that Abrams & Co. made a very strong attempt to tie their semi-reboot to what had come before in the franchise. But how, exactly, are you claiming that it tries harder than any other Trek story to tie itself to the rest of the franchise? So, ST09 ties itself to the franchise more than TNG or DS9? How about Enterprise, which spent its entire final season doing "wink and a nod" type references to everything that had come before it in Trek, or which made its entire final episode a link to TNG?
 
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