Why do you think Beltran was/has been so critical?

[Cepstrum]

Most folks would love a job where they sit around, did almost nothing and got paid well for it.
Beltran is upset because he actually wanted to work but got to do next to nothing but sit around and get paid well for it. He really and truly didn't feel right getting paid for nothing.

I actually kinda admire that fact that he wanted to earn his pay by actually wanting to work. I wish more folks had that type of work ethic.

As someone who ends up with enough free time on his hands during working hours that he ends up posting on forums...*ahem*...I rather wish I had more to do at my job.

I actually feel guilty for having just scored a raise.

And *I* wish my body weren't literally falling apart after a botched surgery. I'm forced to be on medical leave from my beloved biomedical and naval research work AND the PhD program. (Plus the constant pain isn't fun. Guess what: I get to have a cytoscopy next week. Whee. Look it up.)

Kidneys, liver, rectum, prostate, pituitary, bladder, and more. *sigh*. My 20s aren't turning out like I anticipated.

That's why I joined the TrekBBS. Sitting in bed 20 hours a day with nothing but an iPod.... I'm *really* grateful for the kind folks here. You make my days *much* more interesting.

(Sorry for the TMI. I couldn't help but get it off my chest.)



And about Beltran: yes, I *would* admire him if he does indeed have such a work ethic. Still, I was reading his comments before the show started: he said he liked neither sci-fi nor Trek. Hmm. I guess he and/or his agent thought VOY was the right move for him. Now I feel rather sorry for him. He *has* said a lot of positive things about his fellow cast. He just really wanted to act, not just get big $$$ and fame, apparently.

 

[teya]

I am surprised, however, that giving Chakotay a medicine-man type of persona didn't cause offense. It seems rather like a stereotype.

See my signature.

 

[Cepstrum]

I am surprised, however, that giving Chakotay a medicine-man type of persona didn't cause offense. It seems rather like a stereotype.

See my signature.

Right. I am not a Native American Indian, so I can't speak for them. But if sports mascots cause offense (and many use stereotypes of European cultures, such as Vikings, the Scottish, and the Irish), I'd think his faux spirituality would as well. I don't know, really. Maybe I'm completely wrong and it's considered an honor/tribute. ?

 

[exodus]

I am surprised, however, that giving Chakotay a medicine-man type of persona didn't cause offense. It seems rather like a stereotype.

See my signature.

Right. I am not a Native American Indian, so I can't speak for them. But if sports mascots cause offense (and many use stereotypes of European cultures, such as Vikings, the Scottish, and the Irish), I'd think his faux spirituality would as well. I don't know, really. Maybe I'm completely wrong and it's considered an honor/tribute. ?

No, you aren't wrong at all.

 

[teya]

I am surprised, however, that giving Chakotay a medicine-man type of persona didn't cause offense. It seems rather like a stereotype.

See my signature.

Right. I am not a Native American Indian, so I can't speak for them. But if sports mascots cause offense (and many use stereotypes of European cultures, such as Vikings, the Scottish, and the Irish), I'd think his faux spirituality would as well. I don't know, really. Maybe I'm completely wrong and it's considered an honor/tribute. ?

You're not wrong.


Jeri Taylor, for some reason I can't fathom, thought it *would* be a tribute. And I've argued for years here that it isn't. Most understand that. There are a few who insist that because they see Chakotay as an Indian, and that because it's a positive stereotype, we should be happy.


I understand the arguments that the cultures would have changed and evolved over time. However my nation's government & culture hasn't altered a great deal in 500 years. Plus, any evolution has to come from *something*. To argue that Indian cultures would have evolved from some New Age claptrap is ridiculous.


They could have at least given him a soundtrack with drums...

 

[AuntKate]

Too bad they didn't deliberately state that Chakotay's people were not "returning to their past" but evolving to a new tradition.

 

[teya]

Too bad they didn't deliberately state that Chakotay's people were not "returning to their past" but evolving to a new tradition.

Common sense indicates they'd evolve to a new tradition on another planet.


But, evolution comes from *somewhere*. There are threads that tie what we've become to the past.


What Voyager presented as Chakotay's faith bore *no* resemblance to any Native American tradition I'm familiar with.


It would be like presenting a Hindu ritual and saying that's what Christianity had evolved into.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

Wasn't in the gossip mags. I read of it here. And also by email from a poster here that I haven't seen posting in, oh, 5 yrs or more.

You wouldn't happen to remember the name, would you? I just spent a half an hour looking. Couldn't find it anywhere. But then again, I didn't know where to start.

Personally, I blame my gossip addiction on my hubby. Bartenders are terrible gossips.

 

[Cepstrum]

See my signature.

Right. I am not a Native American Indian, so I can't speak for them. But if sports mascots cause offense (and many use stereotypes of European cultures, such as Vikings, the Scottish, and the Irish), I'd think his faux spirituality would as well. I don't know, really. Maybe I'm completely wrong and it's considered an honor/tribute. ?

You're not wrong.


Jeri Taylor, for some reason I can't fathom, thought it *would* be a tribute. And I've argued for years here that it isn't. Most understand that. There are a few who insist that because they see Chakotay as an Indian, and that because it's a positive stereotype, we should be happy.


I understand the arguments that the cultures would have changed and evolved over time. However my nation's government & culture hasn't altered a great deal in 500 years. Plus, any evolution has to come from *something*. To argue that Indian cultures would have evolved from some New Age claptrap is ridiculous.


They could have at least given him a soundtrack with drums...

Thanks. I thought it was maybe just me. I would cringe with embarrassment when the Chakotay/Indian/Medicine-Man came up if my brother was watching. He couldn't believe they'd do something like that in the mid to late 1990s.

Beltran, however, has stated he doesn't like sci-fi/Trek because it's devoid of spirituality. I get the notion from his interviews that *he* might have liked it a little. It seems playing a Native American Indian helped him reconnect to his own cultural heritage, which he'd pretty much ignored. He sounded excited talking about learning new things about Mexican-Indian history, and I think his role prompted it.

I think they just could have handled it a little better without making it seem Native American Indians are an almost alien race or sub-species of humans. There's nothing intrinsically different/magical about them. They just happen to have an interesting and unique cultural history. And also: not all Indians were alike in the past, and they aren't alike today, either. Sure, they share some common ethnic practices (historically) that made it simpler for peoples of the Eastern Hemisphere to kind of lump them together. Their physical makeup has some commonalities as well.

But we don't usually conflate, say a modern Reformed Dutchman with a Greek Orthodox guy, even though their religions are more similar (ie, both Christian), they have similar physical appearances (relatively), and they come from the same continent.

Ok, I'm having trouble trying to make my point. I hope you get my meaning.

 

[propita]

Wasn't in the gossip mags. I read of it here. And also by email from a poster here that I haven't seen posting in, oh, 5 yrs or more.

You wouldn't happen to remember the name, would you? I just spent a half an hour looking. Couldn't find it anywhere. But then again, I didn't know where to start.

Personally, I blame my gossip addiction on my hubby. Bartenders are terrible gossips.

Nah, my memory for things that matter is pretty much crap. I only remember trivia (so I guess Beltran's love life is trivial to me ). But it was many years ago already, possibly all the way back to 2002? Really no idea, but the rumors were rife, especially for J/C fans.

 

[teya]

Right. I am not a Native American Indian, so I can't speak for them. But if sports mascots cause offense (and many use stereotypes of European cultures, such as Vikings, the Scottish, and the Irish), I'd think his faux spirituality would as well. I don't know, really. Maybe I'm completely wrong and it's considered an honor/tribute. ?

You're not wrong.


Jeri Taylor, for some reason I can't fathom, thought it *would* be a tribute. And I've argued for years here that it isn't. Most understand that. There are a few who insist that because they see Chakotay as an Indian, and that because it's a positive stereotype, we should be happy.


I understand the arguments that the cultures would have changed and evolved over time. However my nation's government & culture hasn't altered a great deal in 500 years. Plus, any evolution has to come from *something*. To argue that Indian cultures would have evolved from some New Age claptrap is ridiculous.


They could have at least given him a soundtrack with drums...

Thanks. I thought it was maybe just me. I would cringe with embarrassment when the Chakotay/Indian/Medicine-Man came up if my brother was watching. He couldn't believe they'd do something like that in the mid to late 1990s.

Beltran, however, has stated he doesn't like sci-fi/Trek because it's devoid of spirituality. I get the notion from his interviews that *he* might have liked it a little. It seems playing a Native American Indian helped him reconnect to his own cultural heritage, which he'd pretty much ignored. He sounded excited talking about learning new things about Mexican-Indian history, and I think his role prompted it.

I think they just could have handled it a little better without making it seem Native American Indians are an almost alien race or sub-species of humans. There's nothing intrinsically different/magical about them. They just happen to have an interesting and unique cultural history. And also: not all Indians were alike in the past, and they aren't alike today, either. Sure, they share some common ethnic practices (historically) that made it simpler for peoples of the Eastern Hemisphere to kind of lump them together. Their physical makeup has some commonalities as well.

But we don't usually conflate, say a modern Reformed Dutchman with a Greek Orthodox guy, even though their religions are more similar (ie, both Christian), they have similar physical appearances (relatively), and they come from the same continent.

Ok, I'm having trouble trying to make my point. I hope you get my meaning.

Yep, I get it.


Beltran wasn't really happy with where they took Chakotay's spirituality. I remember an interview early on where he blasted the writers for the New Age nonsense. He said that when he was cast, he was asked for a suggestion for a tribe. He suggested the Maya--a really sensible (and potentially rich in storytelling) idea.


So they asked him for some background. He pointed out that he wasn't Maya and that his family was so far removed from its indigenous background that he really didn't have a clue. After all, he (like most Mexican Indians these days) is Christian.


So Jeri Taylor went to Maya.net, lifted the creation myth from that site almost word-for-word and included it in the book "Pathways" (which was originally the character bibles).


And then she made up the rest.


The really sad thing about all of this? There's a huge expatriate Maya population in Los Angeles. TPTB probably had Maya working in their homes. All they had to do was talk to the hired help. I used to get stories about rituals, mythology, growing up in a contemporary Mayan village from the woman who did my facials.


They had potential, they had opportunity. They squandered it.


ETA: And you really don't want to get exodus and I on the subject of "Tattoo" and the ridiculous nonsense that American Indians are descended from space aliens and that there's a whole tribe of Random Forehead Aliens living in the Central American rainforest.


Given that the genocide of Native Americans was justified by our being classed as subhuman and that we were the last group of Americans to achieve full citizenship, that was a callous and insulting storyline.

 

[Cepstrum]

^^^

Yeah. You're right. I read a Beltran interview expressing his initial excitement about exploring Mexican Indian cultures, such as the Aztecs. He correctly noted that most people, including himself, equated American Indian with just those living in the present day USA. There was a *lot* of real stuff they could have used, and used appropriately.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

Wasn't in the gossip mags. I read of it here. And also by email from a poster here that I haven't seen posting in, oh, 5 yrs or more.

You wouldn't happen to remember the name, would you? I just spent a half an hour looking. Couldn't find it anywhere. But then again, I didn't know where to start.

Personally, I blame my gossip addiction on my hubby. Bartenders are terrible gossips.

Nah, my memory for things that matter is pretty much crap. I only remember trivia (so I guess Beltran's love life is trivial to me ). But it was many years ago already, possibly all the way back to 2002? Really no idea, but the rumors were rife, especially for J/C fans.

Lol. Thanks anyways. I'll have to figure out the expansion thingy. I'll find it one day.

 

[Monty_66]

Beltran wasn't really happy with where they took Chakotay's spirituality. I remember an interview early on where he blasted the writers for the New Age nonsense. He said that when he was cast, he was asked for a suggestion for a tribe. He suggested the Maya--a really sensible (and potentially rich in storytelling) idea.


So they asked him for some background. He pointed out that he wasn't Maya and that his family was so far removed from its indigenous background that he really didn't have a clue. After all, he (like most Mexican Indians these days) is Christian.


So Jeri Taylor went to Maya.net, lifted the creation myth from that site almost word-for-word and included it in the book "Pathways" (which was originally the character bibles).


And then she made up the rest.


The really sad thing about all of this? There's a huge expatriate Maya population in Los Angeles. TPTB probably had Maya working in their homes. All they had to do was talk to the hired help. I used to get stories about rituals, mythology, growing up in a contemporary Mayan village from the woman who did my facials.


They had potential, they had opportunity. They squandered it.


ETA: And you really don't want to get exodus and I on the subject of "Tattoo" and the ridiculous nonsense that American Indians are descended from space aliens and that there's a whole tribe of Random Forehead Aliens living in the Central American rainforest.


Given that the genocide of Native Americans was justified by our being classed as subhuman and that we were the last group of Americans to achieve full citizenship, that was a callous and insulting storyline.

I was really interested in 'Tattoo' as it began and then tried to figure out where exactly they were going. Unfortunately, once the 'ancestors' appeared and the script seemed to turn into complete drivel, I despaired.

I don't suppose you know where and when I can find that early interview with Beltran? I'm fascinated with the ideas behind what made Chakotay a 'spiritual' man and what occurred between actor, writer and producer etc.

Seems that if they'd let him have more substantial input then we perhaps wouldn't have gotten crap storylines and character development showcasing a one-dimensional, crass perception of an indigenous, 'spiritual' man.

I would love to have seen where he would have taken Chakotay...

 

[kent]

IMO, it's just that Beltran wasn't very happy during his time on VOY. There were things he didn't like once the show was underway, and it got only worse for him as the series went on. And rather than be quiet about it, he spoke his mind. Some may consider that a lack of professionalism, but you do have people who aren't happy on a job--and are very vocal about it--but continue to work there anyway in order to pay the bills or because the job pays good.

No it's not professional at all. I have people who work at my job and are constantly vocal about it, even though at my job if your full time you get vacation hours, sick time, and health insurance and the pay isn't horrible. They get no respect, and we end up cutting their hours til they quit.

If you don't like it leave. If you can't be thankful for a regular job that pays well leave. If you're not satisfied enough to make a stink for 7 plus years, THEN SHUT UP or leave.

Chakotay sucked, I never liked ANY of his story lines, even when his character had promise. He should've been killed off trying to get Kes off the ship or something because he sucked.

Not all the characters were hollow. Belanna got fleshed out once she was pregnent, as did tom. Both of them had good story lines throughout the show. Neelix, he was a great character and we learned about him too, as well as he did some pretty cool stuff like save a talaxian colony from destruction. The doctor was even "fleshed" out more as the seasons progressed, and Tuvok was always a sweetheart and a good opposite to Janeway.

Chakotay didn't fit. You wanna know why he didn't ever fit? Because he complained a shitload, and after not getting his way the way he wanted to, complained more. So the producers eventually started "cutting his hours" until he quit which he sadly never did.

that said, i think the producers and writers had quite the racist and generalistic view on "spiritual indians". Then again, i hate that they also seem to be kind of bigoted anyway, hello where is the realistic culture of a native american, and hello no gay people anywhere to be seen?????? like we've seen a handful since TNG. ONE single HANDful.

 

[DonIago]

Given the current job market, "If you don't like it, leave" seems like a rather glib piece of advice.

I was in a job that laid me (and four others) off when the company hit a hard time. They ultimately hired me back two weeks later, but I'd be damned if I was going to keep working there after that.

Now granted I wasn't spending every moment of my free time looking for other work, and I didn't accept any job offer that came along (telemarketing, Burger King...but really, I couldn't have paid for my apartment at that point anyway), but it still took me over a year to find something else.

The day after I had my interview for what became my new job, my soon-to-be old company laid-off four more employees.

 

[Harvey]

"If you don't like it, then leave" isn't exactly sound advice to give someone trying to succeed with an acting career.

It seems to me that Beltran joined the series with certain expectations (encouraged by the writers/producers) that weren't ultimately met (i.e. that he would get to explore his character's American Indian ancestry in a tasteful way; that he would be part of an ensemble cast and receive an equal amount of episodes and screen time as his co-stars). Instead Beltran encountered the character's background in new-age mumbo-jumbo and an "ensemble" that increasingly favored Mulgrew, Ryan, and Picardo.

I don't have any problem with the actor bringing up his criticisms in public. Conventions with Beltran wouldn't be nearly as much fun if he had to store his sarcastic quips in favor of the official line. And, since the producers continued to pay him for all seven years of the series (Chakotay could have easily been jettisoned alongside Kes) it seems his public complaints weren't much of a problem to those in charge.

 

[propita]

Could you imagine conventions if all of the actors stated (each one parroting the former ones) how wonderful Paramount was, how they felt their characters were provided with such growth and depth, how they felt free to express their ideas without fear of retribution, how they felt they grew as actors, etc., etc. Heck, the fans know that this is bs.

What do we hear? The truth, at least from each person's pov: There were problems, mostly from the suits, producers, writers, but very little from the other cast members. That they really seem to respect each other and even like each other. That they're (mostly) grateful for the opportunity, but it was, in the end, just a job. That they don't want to be typecast and can do so much more than just "hailing frequencies open" or "yes, captain"--whether that's other acting or directing or music.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Of course the cost matters. Rights for continued play on home video and television repeats would have to be paid for. As far as breaking the bank goes, television is budgeted on a season-by-season basis (resulting in the formula of an epic show almost always being followed by a bottle show), so the situation (the last episode of season three vs. the last episode of season four) is exactly the same.

They definitely broke the budget on the finale for nuG. RDM says as much in the commentary track. He had to personally write a check to help Bear finish the score properly because the money wasn't there for the orchestra.

 

[Shatnertage]

Teya said:

ETA: And you really don't want to get exodus and I on the subject of "Tattoo" and the ridiculous nonsense that American Indians are descended from space aliens and that there's a whole tribe of Random Forehead Aliens living in the Central American rainforest.

Oh. My. God. Forehead aliens in Central America? And Indians are descended from them, despite pretty solid DNA evidence and abundant common sense that, well, they are just human beings whose ancestors migrated to the Americas a few thousand years before Europeans, Africans, and Asians?

I've got to keep watching this show--it's full of surprises!