Why do you rank TFF highly?

[fireproof78]

He wanted to do a 'directors cut' where he would re-edit scenes and update the God-awful special effects but Paramount refused to give him any money to do it.

A shame because I would love to see that myself. One of the things that drags it down for me is the poor special effects (it really stands out since the other 12 films have decent effects at the very least--TFF sticks out like a sore thumb in that regard). And yeah, it could probably use some re-editing in areas as well.

Now that was about 10 years ago when they were doing all the "Special Edition" DVDs for the first 10 films. Nowadays, with computer technology the way it is they probably could do it for a fraction of the cost. I think there are enough fans to make it worth their while personally. I know I'd buy it.

I would be curious to at least see it. The effects are rarely my breaking point with a film. Effects are, well, effects. If the characters and the story are solid for me then I can understand the effects limits.

V suffers more from the ridiculousness of the characters.

 

[Lord Garth]

I rate it more "in the middle", but I like TFF because it feels like the last "regular" adventure with the TOS Cast. TUC is more like a Series Finale.

 

[Phoenix219]

Yup. I would have happily taken another tv show ft: Kirk and company immediately after TVH and TFF. They were probably the two most fun, TOS style adventures out of all of the movies. I happily picture a third 5 year mission after the God incident.

 

[Relayer1]

The camping bits at the beginning and end are fantastic. I love them.

The rest of it, from the story to the special effects are garbage.

And Sybok. Awful retcon, awful character and badly cast.

 

[plynch]

@Relayer1, You don't seem to rank it highly, then, which was the original question.

TFF is one of those things I didn't know I was supposed to dislike until I got to this BBS.

Now, I too don't like sudden family members anywhere. It smacks of desperation. With that said: TFF feels like TOS. As do II and IV. Verve, fun, the characters seem like themselves.

TMP, I greatly respect, but obviously Gene's vision reboot.

III is a film in the TOS universe, for sure. And not bad at all. But not a Trek ep (uniformed space navy having adventures on a hero ship).

VI: man, the vibe, the characters, it's like it's based on an alternate universe show called Star Trek: same ship and names, but everything is "off."

TFF is fun, very human ("need my pain," campfire scene), has an omnipotent being. It is just very TOS, and an enjoyable "movie" (as opposed to "film").

 

[Relayer1]

@Relayer1, You don't seem to rank it highly, then, which was the original question.

Absolutely, but amongst the things I dislike about it those character pieces bookending it shine even brighter.

I'd have loved to see what Shatner produced with a different story.

 

[Smellmet]

The camping bits at the beginning and end are fantastic. I love them.

The rest of it, from the story to the special effects are garbage.

And Sybok. Awful retcon, awful character and badly cast.

Pretty much sums up my feelings about the movie.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Sybok was a different antagonist from the other Khan 2.0 clones we've gotten waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too many times in Trek movies. Did he needed a better motivation for his journey??? Maybe, but the story needed that all together.

 

[Damian]

I've made a statement many times about this topic when many fans junk on V and give VI these un-deserved praises which I grew a lot of heat over, but I'll say it again, what would Star Trek VI be if the movie had the same SFX as TFF? V is a very nice looking movie visually and despite its off story, and horrible SFX, it didn't have the constant out of character experiences that VI displayed in almost every frame. For V the goal was adventure and it went in that direction and the movie looked good, the characters were the characters and I never questioned their motives. Maybe the SFX won't be the end all savior to that movie but I think it would hold up better if there was a treatment to best the merits of the work done on principal photography.

I guess I'm a bit different, but I don't find myself comparing TFF with TUC a whole lot, except that they both seem to bookend the mission of the Enterprise-A. TFF at the start with TUC concluding this ships tour. They were both very different stories so I find it hard to compare the two directly with one another. I suppose one thing you can say that carried through between the 2 was Kirk's dislike of Klingons. TFF is only maybe a year post David's death, at most, so Kirks dislike is still in it's early stages (other than the usual Federation distrust of a mortal enemy). By TUC it has grown to an almost all out hatred--which could make sense if you consider TUC is about 7 years later, give or take, a long time for that dislike to fester as Kirk gets older. I do agree about the other characters in TUC, they seemed a bit off, except for maybe Spock who is the optimist of the group. Kirk is the only one I can see harboring a grudge. McCoy, Scotty, Chekov, Uhura---I can see some skepticism of peace. The Klingons have been the Federation's mortal enemy for over a century basically so some of that might be natural. But I also think they would be more hopeful.

As for TFF, I do think that movie captured the characters pretty well. That was easily one of the movies strengths. I also liked Sybok. Luckinbill did a really good job with the role and he wasn't your typical villain. In fact, I have a hard time seeing him as a villain at all. He really doesn't mean anyone any harm and isn't looking to destroy, kill or hurt anyone.

But the special effects--ugh. It's really the only one of the films that is really bad in that department. The other films varied in quality, some better than others, but this one sticks out like a sore thumb compared to all the other 12 films. Perhaps if the other films had bad effects as well, it wouldn't stick out as much. But because the others at least had passable to excellent effects, this one sticks out all the more. I'd love to see Paramount rectify that. This is one problem with TFF that actually can be fixed, and in this day and age at a minimal cost--and I do think enough fans would buy it to make it worth their while. I find a lot of fans have a soft spot for TFF, warts and all. I'm one of them. It has some issues to be sure, but I still watch it and enjoy it as a fun ride.

 

[JaxsBrokenHeart]

Star Trek V is an odd movie because the concepts in it (a quest for the creator, an emotional Vulcan in contrast to what we've seen, a cult leader effectively altering people's minds) can all work for a Trek, but don't really come together. The film also just seems hampered by a sense (either deliberately by Shatner or not) to make Kirk more important than everyone else and the tone shifting from light hearted comedy to supposedly asking deep questions about pain and God.

Luckinbill really does give an honest effort as Sybok and in many ways saves Final Frontier from being much worse because of the real depth he brings to the character. The biggest pity is that both the role and the actor weren't in a better story, because it feels like a DC Fontana or even a film writer like Meyer or Nimoy could have done him justice.

But honestly while I can't necessarily call it a good movie, I still somewhat like TFF. I think part of is that (half brother to Spock silliness aside) it really doesn't do any damage to ST and is at worst just seems like a lesser episode of TOS. There are Trek movies I certainly prefer more, but there's more enjoyment to be found from its flaws than the worst of the TNG films or something like Into Darkness.

 

[Vger23]

Star Trek V is an odd movie because the concepts in it (a quest for the creator, an emotional Vulcan in contrast to what we've seen, a cult leader effectively altering people's minds) can all work for a Trek, but don't really come together.

Fully agreed. It was one of the biggest "missed opportunities" in franchise history. It swings for the fences and only hits a single....which I respect FAR more than a film that sits there self-consciously and restrained, with the bat on its shoulder purposefully letting fastballs go by (INS, BEY).

The film also just seems hampered by a sense (either deliberately by Shatner or not) to make Kirk more important than everyone else

This I don't agree with. I feel that TFF continues the attempt to carry on the tradition of giving each of the characters their own spotlight similar to what TSFS and TVH attempts. It certainly focuses more on the secondary characters and their importance than TMP and TWOK, and maybe TVH.

and the tone shifting from light hearted comedy to supposedly asking deep questions about pain and God.

Agreed. It's really unfortunate...but the studio thought they had found some "secret sauce" with the success of TVH, and insisted that Shatner lighten up his original story...which was incongruent with a lighter tone.

Luckinbill really does give an honest effort as Sybok and in many ways saves Final Frontier from being much worse because of the real depth he brings to the character. The biggest pity is that both the role and the actor weren't in a better story, because it feels like a DC Fontana or even a film writer like Meyer or Nimoy could have done him justice.

100% gree that Luckinbill was fantastic in this. Disagree though that the "story" is weak. I actually think the story is very good. It was the execution of the story in the script that was weak. I do not agree that Nick Meyer or (certainly) Nimoy would have written a better script. Aside from TWOK, I've never been a fan of the Nicholas Meyer script work. Meyer became too self-congratulatory and too self-indulgent by the time TVH and TUC were being penned.

But honestly while I can't necessarily call it a good movie, I still somewhat like TFF. I think part of is that (half brother to Spock silliness aside) it really doesn't do any damage to ST and is at worst just seems like a lesser episode of TOS. There are Trek movies I certainly prefer more, but there's more enjoyment to be found from its flaws than the worst of the TNG films or something like Into Darkness.

It's definitely not a GOOD film. But, I do find it to be a wildly enjoyable film!

Great post, thanks for allowing me the opportunity to respond!

 

[Damian]

Agreed. It's really unfortunate...but the studio thought they had found some "secret sauce" with the success of TVH, and insisted that Shatner lighten up his original story...which was incongruent with a lighter tone.

Yeah, definitely a lot of studio interference. I've read numerous times Shatner wanted to make a straight up drama story and Paramount insisted on humor, and it felt very forced in TFF. In TVH it felt very natural, and the humor was totally appropriate to the story--and I always thought TVH was a much needed breather after TWOK and TSFS. Something just for the fun of it basically. But TFF was way over the top.

And the studio was probably partly responsible for the special effects, as I heard they even wanted a cheaper film. However, I also read somewhere the ILM's top teams were unavailable as they were working on other projects. But if that were all, I always said that ILM interns could probably have done a better job than what we got in TFF. Even compared to some other sci-fi films at the time the effects were pretty poor, unless you want to go B-movie territory.

This I don't agree with. I feel that TFF continues the attempt to carry on the tradition of giving each of the characters their own spotlight similar to what TSFS and TVH attempts. It certainly focuses more on the secondary characters and their importance than TMP and TWOK, and maybe TVH.

Yeah, I have to agree here. This film certainly captures some of the best Kirk-Spock-McCoy moments of the films, and yes, even some of the other characters get some time in the sun. Uhura was all but ignored in the first 3 films outside maybe the Mr. Adventure scene in TSFS (hell, she was omitted from the Directors Cut Blu Ray cover for TWOK all together). And Shatner was pretty responsive to the cast's suggestions. For instance, he wanted Kirk to go it alone but Nimoy and later Kelley said that Spock and McCoy would never abandon Kirk and Shatner relented. And even George Takei has said for all the issues he's had over the years with Shatner, as a director he kept things loose on set and was generally pretty approachable when it came to suggestions.

Disagree though that the "story" is weak. I actually think the story is very good. It was the execution of the story in the script that was weak. I do not agree that Nick Meyer or (certainly) Nimoy would have written a better script.

Agree and disagree. I think the story had potential and the execution was weak. But I think having Meyer give the script a once over might not have been a bad idea, sort of what he did for TVH. Not create the story, but touch up the existing story. I think he might have been able to help strengthen the story. And perhaps he might have been an ally for Shatner in toning down the excessive humor. I think originally they wanted Meyer to just give the script a tune up, not so much a re-write.

 

[Vger23]

Yeah, definitely a lot of studio interference. I've read numerous times Shatner wanted to make a straight up drama story and Paramount insisted on humor, and it felt very forced in TFF. In TVH it felt very natural, and the humor was totally appropriate to the story--and I always thought TVH was a much needed breather after TWOK and TSFS. Something just for the fun of it basically. But TFF was way over the top.

And the studio was probably partly responsible for the special effects, as I heard they even wanted a cheaper film. However, I also read somewhere the ILM's top teams were unavailable as they were working on other projects. But if that were all, I always said that ILM interns could probably have done a better job than what we got in TFF. Even compared to some other sci-fi films at the time the effects were pretty poor, unless you want to go B-movie territory.



Yeah, I have to agree here. This film certainly captures some of the best Kirk-Spock-McCoy moments of the films, and yes, even some of the other characters get some time in the sun. Uhura was all but ignored in the first 3 films outside maybe the Mr. Adventure scene in TSFS (hell, she was omitted from the Directors Cut Blu Ray cover for TWOK all together). And Shatner was pretty responsive to the cast's suggestions. For instance, he wanted Kirk to go it alone but Nimoy and later Kelley said that Spock and McCoy would never abandon Kirk and Shatner relented. And even George Takei has said for all the issues he's had over the years with Shatner, as a director he kept things loose on set and was generally pretty approachable when it came to suggestions.



Agree and disagree. I think the story had potential and the execution was weak. But I think having Meyer give the script a once over might not have been a bad idea, sort of what he did for TVH. Not create the story, but touch up the existing story. I think he might have been able to help strengthen the story. And perhaps he might have been an ally for Shatner in toning down the excessive humor. I think originally they wanted Meyer to just give the script a tune up, not so much a re-write.

All good points. I think I can see where you're coming from with Meyer's involvement. Maybe he brings a little extra "clout" to the process and also cleans up some of the messier elements.

It's funny, because the novel for TFF (JM Dillard) reads much better than the movie turned out (and I genuinely love the movie)...so it IS supporting evidence that the core story and ideas were actually very good....but the execution faltered.

 

[Damian]

It's funny, because the novel for TFF (JM Dillard) reads much better than the movie turned out (and I genuinely love the movie)...so it IS supporting evidence that the core story and ideas were actually very good....but the execution faltered.

I read the novel as soon as it came out, which was about a week before the movie. And the book was very good I thought. I thought this was going to be a really good movie based on the novel. I will say I was a bit disappointed with the movie at the time as the book was superior (I highly recommend it to any fan of TFF). I recall it gave you some more background on Sybok, along with J'Onn (I think his name was in the novel), who was Sybok's sidekick--and he was supposed to be a Romulan IIRC. In the movie we really get nothing on him except he had some prior pain--the novel tells you what that was and it was heartbreaking. And she gave you some more information on the other character's 'pains'--whereas in the movie we only see McCoy's and Spock's (and they were depicted very well I thought--it's a shame they didn't share a bit more at least on the regular characters). And she gave some information on how they breached the Great Barrier (though she neglected to mention how they got there so fast).

I also made the 'mistake' of getting the novelization to TUC when it came out about a week before the film and reading that novel--totally ruined the ending for me in that case

 

[Maurice]

And the studio was probably partly responsible for the special effects, as I heard they even wanted a cheaper film. However, I also read somewhere the ILM's top teams were unavailable as they were working on other projects. But if that were all, I always said that ILM interns could probably have done a better job than what we got in TFF. Even compared to some other sci-fi films at the time the effects were pretty poor, unless you want to go B-movie territory.

The issue is that ILM was booked solid, and there were rumbles that some felt they had overcharged for the work for TUC. The things about optical effects houses was they could have pipeline issues, notably around the backup around optical, as there were only so many optical printers. You can easily throw more computers into a render farm, that's not so easy with motion control rigs, stage space and optical printers, much of which has to be custom built. ILM's pipeline was reportedly stuffed...there was no room to do another effects heavy film.

 

[Damian]

The issue is that ILM was booked solid, and there were rumbles that some felt they had overcharged for the work for TUC. The things about optical effects houses was they could have pipeline issues, notably around the backup around optical, as there were only so many optical printers. You can easily throw more computers into a render farm, that's not so easy with motion control rigs, stage space and optical printers, much of which has to be custom built. ILM's pipeline was reportedly stuffed...there was no room to do another effects heavy film.

Well I certainly grant that ILM may simply not have been available, even with interns.

Still, there are other decent effects houses out there. TMP had some of the best effects of its time and was not ILM. Also, Insurrection and Nemesis didn't use ILM but I can't say anything bad about the effects (Insurrection maybe wasn't the most exciting effects, but they were competent enough). IMHO, reading your chart, I'd say Paramount probably got ripped off. An increase of 27% over TVH for the worse effects of the entire series. If I were Paramount, I'd probably ask for a refund.

 

[Maurice]

I dunno what the was about.

1989 had a lot of VFX heavy pix: Ghostbusters II, Back to the Future Part 2, The Abyss, Honey I Shrunk the Kids, Batman, The Fly II, Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, etc. That tied up a lot of VFX houses.

 

[Damian]

I dunno what the was about.

I dunno. I shouldn't post after 11:00, I honestly can't remember why. I was probably trying to be funny and it fell flat.

 

[diankra]

It has some highly effective moments of cinematic direction (Sybok riding to J'onn in the pre-credits).
It has very good scenes between the characters Shatner had to care about. Aside from the campfire, Kelley is amazing in McCoy's flashback.
And Luckinball is good.

But plot poor, treatment of supporting characters poor, and the big fx shots Shatner wanted but couldn't afford would be dwarfed by modern CGI, remembered only as "They did that before CGI?"

 

[diankra]

I dunno what the was about.

1989 had a lot of VFX heavy pix: Ghostbusters II, Back to the Future Part 2, The Abyss, Honey I Shrunk the Kids, Batman, The Fly II, Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, etc. That tied up a lot of VFX houses.

Plus Indy 3, which is why Connery wasn't available even if he was interested.