Why do you rank TFF highly?

[Damian]

Did any actor in TTF really deserved a razzie nomination?

No, I wouldn't say so. The acting wasn't the issue in this film. The story and visual effects were.

I would actually argue strongly that the story was not an issue. Was the script / execution of the core story an issue? Yes. But the story itself was typical Star Trek fare and holds up just fine. Unfortunately, the execution of the story, via the script and a number of production elements, suffers badly in places.

I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say it was Razzie worthy, but Shatner's acting here really took a nose dive IMO. Up to TVH he had his moments, but he was generally pretty good.

But in TFF, TUC and Generations he almost seemed to become a caricature of himself. I don't know if being in the director's chair in TFF affected his acting, but he just never seemed the same to me from that point on when he played Kirk. He sort of gets a pass in TUC because it's generally regarded by the masses as a good movie. But it's something I noticed in all 3.

Now, was it Razzie bad, I probably wouldn't go that far. And there were some great performances. Nimoy was excellent as usual, and Kelley did his usual great job--esp. in the scene where he 'remembers' his father's death. Luckinbill was good as well, really, the rest of the cast was pretty good. Though the face-palm moment when Scotty knocks himself out on a pipe was a bit cringeworthy. But then, that wasn't his fault, it's the script he was given there. Somehow the 3 Stooges in Star Trek just doesn't appeal to me all that much.

Now if you want to give the special effects a Razzie, I could probably get behind that. . Compared to the other 12 films the effects in TFF really stick out like a sore thumb.

 

[dupersuper]

I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say it was Razzie worthy, but Shatner's acting here really took a nose dive IMO.

But...the "I need my pain" speech.

 

[Damian]

But...the "I need my pain" speech.

Well, that's not to say he didn't have his moments in his last 3 Star Trek films either.

Before TFF you always had people that made fun of Shatner's acting, and yes Shatner could be a bit of a ham sometimes. But the people poking fun always went over the top (usually good naturedly). He was never really as hammy as he was made out to be back in the day.

It just seemed in TFF, TUC and Generations Shatner then became that over the top personality people always poked fun at him for....he seemed to really become that caricature.

Honestly, and I know this is sacrilegious for a Trekkie to say, it's one reason I actually have no desire to see him return to Star Trek. I mean, there's the simple fact that his character died and I admit I'm a bit of a continuity nut. But part of it is Shatner has changed so much in the last 30 years that I honestly think Trekkies would end up being disappointed. I saw him about 2 years ago when he came to our area to do a TWOK presentation and they showed the movie. I loved seeing him on stage, but I was more convinced than ever that him playing Kirk again now would be a mistake.

Again, I know mine is probably a minority opinion. William Shatner will always be my favorite version of Captain Kirk and I in know way would ever want to imagine someone else as Kirk back then. But I said good bye to his Captain Kirk a long time ago.

 

[Mudd]

I don't.

 

[fireproof78]

But in TFF, TUC and Generations he almost seemed to become a caricature of himself. I don't know if being in the director's chair in TFF affected his acting, but he just never seemed the same to me from that point on when he played Kirk. He sort of gets a pass in TUC because it's generally regarded by the masses as a good movie. But it's something I noticed in all 3.

I think TFF and GEN showed it more because he there was this portrayal of Kirk the Legend. TFF felt very sound bite style in Kirk's dialog, with more quips (I've always known I'd die alone, because it's there, mind if we drop in? etc). The I need my pain speech stands out in part because the rest is so off putting. It's a great scene but that's because it isn't trying to insert a joke every other line.

 

[Damian]

I think TFF and GEN showed it more because he there was this portrayal of Kirk the Legend. TFF felt very sound bite style in Kirk's dialog, with more quips (I've always known I'd die alone, because it's there, mind if we drop in? etc). The I need my pain speech stands out in part because the rest is so off putting. It's a great scene but that's because it isn't trying to insert a joke every other line.

It's true that in TUC his acting is masked a bit by the overall story and the lines he was given. It wasn't quite as noticeable there as it was in TFF and Generations. He still delivered his lines in that 'caricatured' manner he had in TFF but it was a bit easier to overlook.

 

[fireproof78]

It's true that in TUC his acting is masked a bit by the overall story and the lines he was given. It wasn't quite as noticeable there as it was in TFF and Generations. He still delivered his lines in that 'caricatured' manner he had in TFF but it was a bit easier to overlook.

Part of that is because Meyer knew how to limit Shatner to a different delivery, despite the tendency to be a caricature.

 

[Vger23]

I think TFF and GEN showed it more because he there was this portrayal of Kirk the Legend. TFF felt very sound bite style in Kirk's dialog, with more quips (I've always known I'd die alone, because it's there, mind if we drop in? etc). The I need my pain speech stands out in part because the rest is so off putting. It's a great scene but that's because it isn't trying to insert a joke every other line.

In total fairness....I think Shatner's performance as Kirk in TFF falls into 3 categories:

1. Shatner is playing "Jim" and not "Captain Kirk" in the earlier scenes in the film. He's on leave with his friends and he's relaxed and having fun...and it is appropriate for him to have let his hair down in that context.

2. Shatner knocks the ball out of the park in just about any scene in the observation lounge. It's not just the "I need my pain" speech...it's the entire pre-barrier sequence as well as Spock's exposition dump before they raid Paradise City and the "cosmic thoughts, gentlemen" scene at the end. He's every bit as good in those scenes as he is in TWOK and TSFS.

3. Shatner has caricature moments after they leave Yosemite and before they launch into the primary mission. He also acts silly and over-does it in the wake of Sybok taking over the ship and locking the team in the brig.

So...it's a mixed bag.

 

[SithHappens]

I have always liked TFF, it's a cozy film for me, really enjoy the row row row your boat stuff and the bonding with the 3 main characters.

Some good comic moments throughout.

Yeah it's cheesy, its obvious budget issues were encountered but I can happily rewatch it and have a fun time.

At least it's not like nemesis in the middle which is so boring and depressing.

 

[Jadeb]

In total fairness....I think Shatner's performance as Kirk in TFF falls into 3 categories:

1. Shatner is playing "Jim" and not "Captain Kirk" in the earlier scenes in the film. He's on leave with his friends and he's relaxed and having fun...and it is appropriate for him to have let his hair down in that context.

2. Shatner knocks the ball out of the park in just about any scene in the observation lounge. It's not just the "I need my pain" speech...it's the entire pre-barrier sequence as well as Spock's exposition dump before they raid Paradise City and the "cosmic thoughts, gentlemen" scene at the end. He's every bit as good in those scenes as he is in TWOK and TSFS.

3. Shatner has caricature moments after they leave Yosemite and before they launch into the primary mission. He also acts silly and over-does it in the wake of Sybok taking over the ship and locking the team in the brig.

So...it's a mixed bag.

Yeah, I think Bill’s performance comes off as a bit schizophrenic because the film’s tone is a bit schizophrenic. It’s built into the script. Lot of the cast get clunky moments, but at least Dee gets lots of good stuff to do.

 

[Vger23]

Yeah, I think Bill’s performance comes off as a bit schizophrenic because the film’s tone is a bit schizophrenic. It’s built into the script. Lot of the cast get clunky moments, but at least Dee gets lots of good stuff to do.

I agree. I think if they wanted to insert levity, the opening act of the film was the place to do it. Once the ship leaves Earth, the tone needed to tighten up and be more consistent. You could still have little bursts of natural humor (and there is still some great stuff sprinkled through the film: “Actually, it’s my first attempt” and “He DID have pointed ears” are brilliant little comedy beats), but the tone needed to be more in-line with the seriousness of the story and situation.

 

[Damian]

Yeah, I think Bill’s performance comes off as a bit schizophrenic because the film’s tone is a bit schizophrenic. It’s built into the script. Lot of the cast get clunky moments, but at least Dee gets lots of good stuff to do.

I agree. I think if they wanted to insert levity, the opening act of the film was the place to do it. Once the ship leaves Earth, the tone needed to tighten up and be more consistent. You could still have little bursts of natural humor (and there is still some great stuff sprinkled through the film: “Actually, it’s my first attempt” and “He DID have pointed ears” are brilliant little comedy beats), but the tone needed to be more in-line with the seriousness of the story and situation.

Well, and too be fair a lot of that is studio interference. They thought they could re-do TVH humor in TFF, whereas Shatner wanted to make it more dramatic. The studio insisted on the funnies and it fell flat much of the time.

In TVH the comedy was organic--it felt natural to the film and was appropriate most of the time. But in TFF, while there were moments of genuine comedy that were pretty good (the "He Did have pointed ears" for instance) there were others that were just WTF---like Scotty cracking his head on a beam after just saying he knew the ship like the back of his hand----yee haw, wasn't that funny folks---um, not really. Part of me wonders if that was just a bit of sarcasm on Shatner's part. Hey, studio guys, you want funny? Right back atcha.

It just seemed to me that from TFF-on Shatner started becoming that caricature others used to make fun of him for (that were usually over the top exaggerations--true, Shat could be a ham at times but never as bad as he was made out to be previously).

As someone noted, Meyer managed to restrain some of Shat's tendencies in TUC, though I noticed it did show itself from time to time. Like when his conversation with Spock at the beginning when he first finds out his new orders. The dialogue was fine but the delivery just felt caricatured.

So in TFF some of that was studio meddling. While Shatner's delivery was ham-handed at times, I can't really blame the content on him.

 

[Grant]

In total fairness....I think Shatner's performance as Kirk in TFF falls into 3 categories:

1. Shatner is playing "Jim" and not "Captain Kirk" in the earlier scenes in the film. He's on leave with his friends and he's relaxed and having fun...and it is appropriate for him to have let his hair down in that context.

2. Shatner knocks the ball out of the park in just about any scene in the observation lounge. It's not just the "I need my pain" speech...it's the entire pre-barrier sequence as well as Spock's exposition dump before they raid Paradise City and the "cosmic thoughts, gentlemen" scene at the end. He's every bit as good in those scenes as he is in TWOK and TSFS.

3. Shatner has caricature moments after they leave Yosemite and before they launch into the primary mission. He also acts silly and over-does it in the wake of Sybok taking over the ship and locking the team in the brig.

So...it's a mixed bag.

That's the best break down of his acting in Star Trek V that I've ever seen. I think you nailed it 100%. Part of the time he's just playing Captain Kirk kicking back on vacation. As you've said all the scenes in the observation room are outstanding and all the scenes on the Enterprise after they're captured (outside of the observation room) are pretty weak as far as his acting goes. The brig the turbo shaft Etc.
I guess the question is why did he do so well in some scenes and in others he was just awful.
I would love to see alternate takes of his performance in the brig because it's hard to imagine there were takes worse than the ones that ended up being used.

 

[fireproof78]

I still lay a lot at Shatner's feet. He convinced the studio he could do both.

 

[Vger23]

Well, and too be fair a lot of that is studio interference. They thought they could re-do TVH humor in TFF, whereas Shatner wanted to make it more dramatic. The studio insisted on the funnies and it fell flat much of the time.

In TVH the comedy was organic--it felt natural to the film and was appropriate most of the time. But in TFF, while there were moments of genuine comedy that were pretty good (the "He Did have pointed ears" for instance) there were others that were just WTF---like Scotty cracking his head on a beam after just saying he knew the ship like the back of his hand----yee haw, wasn't that funny folks---um, not really. Part of me wonders if that was just a bit of sarcasm on Shatner's part. Hey, studio guys, you want funny? Right back atcha.

It just seemed to me that from TFF-on Shatner started becoming that caricature others used to make fun of him for (that were usually over the top exaggerations--true, Shat could be a ham at times but never as bad as he was made out to be previously).

As someone noted, Meyer managed to restrain some of Shat's tendencies in TUC, though I noticed it did show itself from time to time. Like when his conversation with Spock at the beginning when he first finds out his new orders. The dialogue was fine but the delivery just felt caricatured.

So in TFF some of that was studio meddling. While Shatner's delivery was ham-handed at times, I can't really blame the content on him.

It's funny, because there's a different style to TUC that I can't put my finger directly on, but it really takes me straight out of the movie. I look at TMP, TWOK and TSFS to feel pretty "realistic" and "serious" within the Trek universe, and part of that is that the drama, performances and dialogue are all taking themselves seriously. They sell it as something that is important and realistic to the characters, so no matter how cartoony or crazy some of the concepts in those earlier films are, the performances sell it extremely well.

TUC seems to be more "winky winky" at the audience...and the performances are all kind of "look, this is us, the actors, excited and nostalgic that we are making our last film playing these iconic roles." I honestly think the only portion of the entire film that feels as dramatic and is SOLD as being serious and "real" through the performances is the assassination scene and the follow-up when Kirk and McCoy try to save Gorkon.

Everything else, to me, comes off as too much self-awareness on the actor's and director's parts to make everything charming and nostalgic. It takes me out of the movie every time I watch it.

I still lay a lot at Shatner's feet. He convinced the studio he could do both.

Politically, I'm not sure he had a choice. He was a first-time director helming a multi-million dollar sci-fi film in a tentpole franchise for the studio. He had already fought pretty hard for other elements of the production and story with the studio. I think he felt there were some battles he needed to leave on the field.

 

[Lord Garth]

TUC seems to be more "winky winky" at the audience...and the performances are all kind of "look, this is us, the actors, excited and nostalgic that we are making our last film playing these iconic roles." I honestly think the only portion of the entire film that feels as dramatic and is SOLD as being serious and "real" through the performances is the assassination scene and the follow-up when Kirk and McCoy try to save Gorkon.

I blame it on three things:
1. The ghost of TVH still loomed large.
2. The 25th Anniversary probably did make them nostalgic.
3. The most important one: TWOK happened earlier in Nick Meyer's director career. He felt like he had something to prove. And that was good for the film. And good for the actors because he rode them hard. He wore out Shatner until he could get the performance he wanted out of him. By TUC, he's proven himself, there's less pressure. I think he wasn't as determined to rule with an iron fist. And that meant the actors would get silly and it would show up in the performances.

Also, Christopher Plummer and William Shatner were friends IRL. So once you get two actors who are friends on-set together, that's it. Trouble City.

 

[STEPhon IT]

No, I wouldn't say so. The acting wasn't the issue in this film. The story and visual effects were.

You are correct. To this day, as much as I know what the PLOT was, as for the STORY of TFF I have no clue what the hell its about. Kirk, Spock and McCoy, what are their motivations, what was lingering within them which needs to be explored and later resolved? The movie was PLOT driven but lack the substance to explore themes which was already ingrained. God was the subject matter and I didn't get any insight on what were their beliefs and how could it be challenged. The plot may have been typical Star Trek fare but the story was one of worst and fits in the long line of terrible episodes from Season 3.

I have always liked TFF, it's a cozy film for me, really enjoy the row row row your boat stuff and the bonding with the 3 main characters.

Some good comic moments throughout.

Yeah it's cheesy, its obvious budget issues were encountered but I can happily rewatch it and have a fun time.

At least it's not like nemesis in the middle which is so boring and depressing.

If you like comic books, there's one I would like you to read - if you haven't already read it - called "Debt of Honor". There's a series of panels where Kirk having a moment outside of his Starfleet duties and away from his comrades. I would've liked to see Kirk having that moment in the movie, I did like Gillian and would've like her back in some way. With the 3 together, there should've been something more in the park scenes which supports the plot.

 

[STEPhon IT]

I blame it on three things:
1. The ghost of TVH still loomed large.
2. The 25th Anniversary probably did make them nostalgic.
3. The most important one: TWOK happened earlier in Nick Meyer's director career. He felt like he had something to prove. And that was good for the film. And good for the actors because he rode them hard. He wore out Shatner until he could get the performance he wanted out of him. By TUC, he's proven himself, there's less pressure. I think he wasn't as determined to rule with an iron fist. And that meant the actors would get silly and it would show up in the performances.

Also, Christopher Plummer and William Shatner were friends IRL. So once you get two actors who are friends on-set together, that's it. Trouble City.

In TWOK, Shatner was curious about what Montalban was doing and wanted to watch his performance which Meyer and Head guy Harve Bennett didn't want. They understood Montalban was sensitive to his craft and could harm his role as Singh, Shatner liked to see and feel what others are doing and feeds his performances but at times could upstage others which is what Bennett and Meyer didn't want. At the time Montalban was so invested in his TV role on Fantasy Island and unfortunately having a high stressful rivalry with his co-star, he needed TWOK and needed time and discipline to get the performance which is now legendary.

Meyer wore out Shatner because the actor couldn't dive into what Montalban was doing and had to rely on whatever the director gave him. As for performances, I don't see much of a difference in delivery from Shatner's work in any of the Star Trek movies besides tone and theme; he's been mostly consistent in his role as Kirk, whether the director felt to do meaningless exercises to get what he got in VI which had Kirk be completely out of character throughout the entire movie, well... maybe this was the reason why he's not hired to direct anymore Star Trek projects, and couldn't find a director's gig until 8 years later. William Shatner is a constant professional, knows his lines and has a great comprehension of the material he's performing, IMO it was ridiculous for Meyer to treat him that way, especially getting the performance that was presented.

 

[Damian]

It's funny, because there's a different style to TUC that I can't put my finger directly on, but it really takes me straight out of the movie. I look at TMP, TWOK and TSFS to feel pretty "realistic" and "serious" within the Trek universe, and part of that is that the drama, performances and dialogue are all taking themselves seriously. They sell it as something that is important and realistic to the characters, so no matter how cartoony or crazy some of the concepts in those earlier films are, the performances sell it extremely well.

Yeah, there is something about TUC that feels a bit off throughout. I think the pattern of Shatner's acting that started in TFF continued here and through Generations. But they were all a bit off at least at points. Even Nimoy at points seemed a bit askew. Almost like they all became a bit caricatured.

It's almost like the main cast stopped taking their roles seriously. Perhaps that's another reason people sometimes gloss over Shatner's acting in TUC because it was sort of diluted.

I liked TUC for the most part. But I find I don't hold it in as high regard as many other Trek fans. Many consider a top 3-5 film. I usually have it someone in the middle, maybe 4-6 out of the 13, depending on my mood.

The plot may have been typical Star Trek fare but the story was one of worst and fits in the long line of terrible episodes from Season 3.

Hey, watch what you say about Season 3

 

[suarezguy]

I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say it was Razzie worthy, but Shatner's acting here really took a nose dive IMO. Up to TVH he had his moments, but he was generally pretty good.

But in TFF, TUC and Generations he almost seemed to become a caricature of himself. I don't know if being in the director's chair in TFF affected his acting, but he just never seemed the same to me from that point on when he played Kirk. He sort of gets a pass in TUC because it's generally regarded by the masses as a good movie. But it's something I noticed in all 3.

I thought in TUC he went pretty OTT and/or all-in but in a way that very much worked and fit.