Why do you rank TFF highly?

[Damian]

I thought in TUC he went pretty OTT and/or all-in but in a way that very much worked and fit.

Yeah, I agree it wasn't as noticeable in TUC, probably to a couple of factors. As Vger23 pointed out, everyone seemed a bit off compared to earlier films. And TUC is a better story overall than TFF so it makes it easier to overlook some things that maybe would be more noticeable if it wasn't a good movie.

TFF and Generations weren't as good as TUC overall IMO, which fairly or not makes it harder to overlook Shatner's hamminess in those two films.

I mean, I liked all 13 films to varying degrees. I do have TFF 13/13 for a number of factors, the story wasn't executed well and the special effects really are a drag on that film (with upgraded effects I could see myself swapping it with Insurrection for 12th place--Insurrection had a weak story but it at least appears competently made and I always loved the cinematography of that film). But TFF is good comfort food Star Trek. It has some great Kirk-Spock-McCoy moments, Luckinbill was a pleasure to watch and Goldsmith gave us a great music score for the film.

To me, TMP is the gourmet feast of the 13 films--I take it slow, savor the feast. TFF on the other hand is the macaroni and cheese. You don't dress up for that one but it's feel good, eat while in your jogging pants food. TWOK and First Contact are like the steak and potatoes dinner (I love steak, but substitute seafood if that's your preference). Then the others range from buffet stuff your face food or chain restaurant get your fill movies.

With every thing I read about TFF and what the original intents were for the film I can't say I'd ever see it being one of the great Star Trek films---but with better story execution, more appropriately placed humor, and better special effects I think the potential was there for at least a middle of the road Star Trek film.

 

[suarezguy]

Well, and too be fair a lot of that is studio interference. They thought they could re-do TVH humor in TFF, whereas Shatner wanted to make it more dramatic. The studio insisted on the funnies and it fell flat much of the time.

In TVH the comedy was organic--it felt natural to the film and was appropriate most of the time. But in TFF, while there were moments of genuine comedy that were pretty good (the "He Did have pointed ears" for instance) there were others that were just WTF

To me the shift to and type of comedy felt more drastic and desperate in TVH, although that's probably in part just from TFF being after it. Having to travel back in time to contemporary Earth & the crew therefore being out of place and the Enterprise being buggy and the supporting characters being less competent seem equally contrived, though not in themselves particularly bothersome, to me.

Something about the line "Everybody remember where we parked" and the music with it does really irk me.

 

[Damian]

To me the shift to and type of comedy felt more drastic and desperate in TVH, although that's probably in part just from TFF being after it. Having to travel back in time to contemporary Earth & the crew therefore being out of place and the Enterprise being buggy and the supporting characters being less competent seem equally contrived, though not in themselves particularly bothersome, to me.

Something about the line "Everybody remember where we parked" and the music with it does really irk me.

Well, maybe. In TVH the humor just felt more natural and organic to the story.

And I think TVH was done in a more light-hearted manner on purpose. We had 2 very weighty movies in TWOK and TSFS. I think they wanted to lighten things up with TVH. Sort of like how a horror movie might add a bit of levity and humor after a scary moment. TVH was like that. Something to lighten things up a bit. So the humor felt natural there and not forced.

The only downside is TVH was pretty popular with the masses and Paramount thought they could replicate that success and in TFF it fell flat a lot of the time. And some of the humor in TFF was just eye rolling (like Scotty knocking himself out...after saying how well he knew the ship).

 

[Vger23]

Well, maybe. In TVH the humor just felt more natural and organic to the story.

And I think TVH was done in a more light-hearted manner on purpose. We had 2 very weighty movies in TWOK and TSFS. I think they wanted to lighten things up with TVH. Sort of like how a horror movie might add a bit of levity and humor after a scary moment. TVH was like that. Something to lighten things up a bit. So the humor felt natural there and not forced.

The only downside is TVH was pretty popular with the masses and Paramount thought they could replicate that success and in TFF it fell flat a lot of the time. And some of the humor in TFF was just eye rolling (like Scotty knocking himself out...after saying how well he knew the ship).

I think the differences are attributed to the story and themes.

TVH (which I actually like LESS than TFF) had the crew time-traveling to modern times, and was a perfect set-up for some effective and appropriate fish-out-of-water humor. So I'd argue while I like TFF better, the humor in TVH seems more natural to the story and the situation the characters find themselves in.

TFF has a hostage situation on a politically-charged planet, followed by the Enterprise getting hijacked to a region of space that is unknown and deadly while the crew is under the telepathic influence of Spock's half-brother, who is crazy because he thinks God is speaking to him. This is not exactly the storyline to insert a ton of unwarranted humor into.

I think TFF was fine to be lighthearted in the opening act, before the ship receives its orders and everyone is on leave. That would have worked perfectly. I also think there are some nice organic moments of humor during the "mission" part of the film ("He's good....really" and "He did have pointed ears" are perfect examples). I think some of the other humor (Uhura fan-dance, Scotty knocking himself out, etc.) are total mis-calculations given the themes and tone of the story. It would have been like having unwarrented one-liners during the final battle with Khan.

Good discussion!

 

[Damian]

I think TFF was fine to be lighthearted in the opening act, before the ship receives its orders and everyone is on leave. That would have worked perfectly. I also think there are some nice organic moments of humor during the "mission" part of the film ("He's good....really" and "He did have pointed ears" are perfect examples). I think some of the other humor (Uhura fan-dance, Scotty knocking himself out, etc.) are total mis-calculations given the themes and tone of the story. It would have been like having unwarrented one-liners during the final battle with Khan

Yeah, every movie had bits of humor in it. Even TMP had the occasional bit of humor, and that's probably the most serious of the films (like McCoy's little bit near the beginning when he says about something we don't understand always being called "a thing"). And a little humor at points in TFF would be fine.

They were just clearly trying to go to the humor well because of how popular TVH was, and it didn't fit the story. Of course, it's not the first time they tried to get water out of a dry hole. They went back to the TWOK well enough times--particularly with Nemesis-Star Trek (2009)--STID all tapping that well to some extent (and I liked all 3 of those movies but no doubt they were all trying to recapture some of that TWOK magic).

Unfortunately, that can't be fixed in TFF. What can be fixed is the special effects. I'd be curious to see if overall reaction to TFF would change if they improved the effects there.

It's irrational, but I haven't upgraded to Blu-Ray for this film in a sort of protest. Like getting the Blu-Ray would be like putting lip stick on a pig. Why would I want crisper, clearer bad special effects. I did get the special edition DVD when they came out (and honestly the special editions were pretty well done, probably as crisp as you can get a DVD).

I've also held out getting the Blu-Ray for TMP for the same reason (and again, the directors edition DVD is actually pretty good for a DVD). But at least in that case the updates are out there, somebody just needs to upgrade it to Blu-Ray...not sure what Paramount is waiting for in that case, the makers of the DE have said they still have the originals and are just waiting for the word basically).

Come on Paramount, give us an upgrade on TFF. It actually probably wouldn't cost that much these days and I actually believe there is a market for that--I honestly think they'd make some money off that.

 

[Vger23]

Unfortunately, that can't be fixed in TFF. What can be fixed is the special effects. I'd be curious to see if overall reaction to TFF would change if they improved the effects there.

It's irrational, but I haven't upgraded to Blu-Ray for this film in a sort of protest. Like getting the Blu-Ray would be like putting lip stick on a pig. Why would I want crisper, clearer bad special effects. I did get the special edition DVD when they came out (and honestly the special editions were pretty well done, probably as crisp as you can get a DVD).

I've also held out getting the Blu-Ray for TMP for the same reason (and again, the directors edition DVD is actually pretty good for a DVD). But at least in that case the updates are out there, somebody just needs to upgrade it to Blu-Ray...not sure what Paramount is waiting for in that case, the makers of the DE have said they still have the originals and are just waiting for the word basically).

Come on Paramount, give us an upgrade on TFF. It actually probably wouldn't cost that much these days and I actually believe there is a market for that--I honestly think they'd make some money off that.

I agree entirely that a total make-over in visual effects would elevate the film. I'd buy that on its first day of release. I know a lot of people disagree, because they don't like the story or the script, but I do like the story...so improving the fx would actually mean a lot to me. If you go out on YouTube, you can pretty easily find some re-done VFX sequences that fans have posted that are pretty good, and very indicative of how you could improve the look of the film with a professional makeover.

On the topic of "upgrading" your DVD's...I'm a bit of a home theater guy, and I have to say that TMP in particular looks really amazing in BR, particularly if you have a 4k upconvert. I have seen TMP 100 times easily, and watching the BR I have noticed details that I've never seen before. I don't know if it's the quality of film stock Robert Wise used....but it's pretty amazing. It looks better than some of my modern 4k disks. If you are a TMP fan, you can probably find it really cheap now...and I think you'd enjoy it.

TFF is not as good looking. There's a lot of digital smoothing that looks a little meh...but a lot of Shatner's interior cinematography is very lively and colorful, and some of that comes across much better in the BR presentation than in the DVD Special Edition. Some of the contrast is kind of weird on the BR. The "God Head" is almost invisible inside the column of light, for example. But, it looks bright and colorful as well, which I enjoy.

 

[Damian]

I agree entirely that a total make-over in visual effects would elevate the film. I'd buy that on its first day of release. I know a lot of people disagree, because they don't like the story or the script, but I do like the story...so improving the fx would actually mean a lot to me. If you go out on YouTube, you can pretty easily find some re-done VFX sequences that fans have posted that are pretty good, and very indicative of how you could improve the look of the film with a professional makeover.

I honestly think there'd be enough to make it worth their while. 10-15 years ago when Shat originally asked, maybe that would have been a different story. It might have been too expensive to make it worth their while. But nowadays they could get away with it pretty inexpensively and get a really good job of it done.

TFF is a bit of an oddball in the sense that fans generally seem to rank it near the bottom of the Star Trek films...yet many still have a soft spot for it and watch it (that's not to say there aren't those who hate it and wouldn't watch it if you paid them).

The effects are just so bad compared to the other Star Trek films, it's sad in a way. There are really only 2 shots I might keep. The one is the Enterprise waiting for the shuttlecraft with the moon ahead of it. That's actually a very nice shot. And I actually liked the night shot on Paradise City with the moons in the sky. The moons are maybe a bit too luminescent, but the effect was nice with the city in the distance. The rest range from fair at best to poor for the most part.

As for upgrading, well, I have to admit part of it is a bit of a protest. I want my directors edition of TMP--Not sure why Paramount is dragging their feet. The creators of the effects have said they have the originals and are just waiting for the word to upgrade to Blu-Ray. DO IT! But at least on that front I think it will happen since the upgrades actually exist.

Sadly, I hold out much less hope for TFF. Paramount seems that film in low esteem. We're probably lucky they even did a special edition DVD for that one. They probably only bothered because they did the other 9 films and they kind of had to.

What's amusing is I've always said TMP is my favorite Trek film. Yet, until about 2 or 3 years ago I never saw the original theatrical version (they were doing a theater run with it and I got to see it on the big screen for the first time and it was the original theatrical version). Previously I only ever saw the special longer version on VHS and the DE on DVD. And I loved the DE--the special effects were always stellar on TMP, so that was just a bonus on the DE--I really liked the adjustment to some of the pacing of that film and a couple other things they fixed up. I'd love to see the Blu-Ray of that.

 

[fireproof78]

Not sure why Paramount is dragging their feet.

Money.

As you note, a brief sweep of the fandom finds that film held down at the bottom of the list of a lot of ranking Trek films. It has been the subject of lampooning and mockery for a while now, even during the heyday of Abrams' ruination of the franchise. Plus with COVID and the Viacom merger why would Paramount be like "Here Worst Film of the Franchise; have more money."

 

[Vger23]

I honestly think there'd be enough to make it worth their while. 10-15 years ago when Shat originally asked, maybe that would have been a different story. It might have been too expensive to make it worth their while. But nowadays they could get away with it pretty inexpensively and get a really good job of it done.

TFF is a bit of an oddball in the sense that fans generally seem to rank it near the bottom of the Star Trek films...yet many still have a soft spot for it and watch it (that's not to say there aren't those who hate it and wouldn't watch it if you paid them).

The effects are just so bad compared to the other Star Trek films, it's sad in a way. There are really only 2 shots I might keep. The one is the Enterprise waiting for the shuttlecraft with the moon ahead of it. That's actually a very nice shot. And I actually liked the night shot on Paradise City with the moons in the sky. The moons are maybe a bit too luminescent, but the effect was nice with the city in the distance. The rest range from fair at best to poor for the most part.

As for upgrading, well, I have to admit part of it is a bit of a protest. I want my directors edition of TMP--Not sure why Paramount is dragging their feet. The creators of the effects have said they have the originals and are just waiting for the word to upgrade to Blu-Ray. DO IT! But at least on that front I think it will happen since the upgrades actually exist.

Sadly, I hold out much less hope for TFF. Paramount seems that film in low esteem. We're probably lucky they even did a special edition DVD for that one. They probably only bothered because they did the other 9 films and they kind of had to.

What's amusing is I've always said TMP is my favorite Trek film. Yet, until about 2 or 3 years ago I never saw the original theatrical version (they were doing a theater run with it and I got to see it on the big screen for the first time and it was the original theatrical version). Previously I only ever saw the special longer version on VHS and the DE on DVD. And I loved the DE--the special effects were always stellar on TMP, so that was just a bonus on the DE--I really liked the adjustment to some of the pacing of that film and a couple other things they fixed up. I'd love to see the Blu-Ray of that.

Agreed on all counts. I see some of these other old studio movies that get released in 4K HDR and I can't believe Paramount wouldn't release tentpole franchise films like the Star Trek movies. The most obvious candidates for the full make-over are TMP and TFF. I think the studio struggles with those being the two most "controversial" films in the catalogue. I bet that's why they are so reluctant to move.

 

[Amaris]

I love the memories attached to the film from my own life, I love the character moments, I love what it *tried* to be, and I love the soundtrack. There were scenes that were some of the best in all of Star Trek, like the death scene between McCoy and his father. That was masterfully done by all involved.

 

[Vger23]

I can tell you this...I just bought (after years and years of patience) the Intrada 2-disk extended soundtrack, and it was so worth the wait. I just happened to be surfing around a couple weeks ago and saw that it was available again.

The musical score to this film is really amazing. It's not quite TMP (but then again, what is).....but it's easily my second-favorite soundtrack in the franchise. And the gap between TFF and TMP is not very wide.

 

[Iamnotspock]

I love the memories attached to the film from my own life, I love the character moments, I love what it *tried* to be, and I love the soundtrack. There were scenes that were some of the best in all of Star Trek, like the death scene between McCoy and his father. That was masterfully done by all involved.

This sums up my feelings too.

In addition, it was the first Trek movie I saw. I started watching Trek with a BBC2 rerun of TOS between TNG seasons and a few weeks into that run, around "The Naked Time", BBC1 screened The Final Frontier for the first time. This, for me at age 6, was mind-blowing; to see these characters still together twenty years on from the episodes I'd been watching broadened the world significantly. They were a little greyer and heavier, and the sets and costumes were different, but all were still recognisable; the impact was a bit like what I imagine that of "The Menagerie" was in 1967, only looking forward rather than backward. I'd been loving the series already, but I was then interested in seeing how the saga progressed to where I knew they'd end up.

 

[Amaris]

This sums up my feelings too.

In addition, it was the first Trek movie I saw. I started watching Trek with a BBC2 rerun of TOS between TNG seasons and a few weeks into that run, around "The Naked Time", BBC1 screened The Final Frontier for the first time. This, for me at age 6, was mind-blowing; to see these characters still together twenty years on from the episodes I'd been watching broadened the world significantly. They were a little greyer and heavier, and the sets and costumes were different, but all were still recognisable; the impact was a bit like what I imagine that of "The Menagerie" was in 1967, only looking forward rather than backward. I'd been loving the series already, but I was then interested in seeing how the saga progressed to where I knew they'd end up.

Yeah, it was a first for me, too. Not first Trek movie I saw, but first one I owned. My parents bought a used VHS copy back in the 1990s for my birthday, and I loved it to death. I still have it, too. Every once in a while, I put it in our old VCR just to keep it working.

 

[dupersuper]

Money...
why would Paramount be like "Here Worst Film of the Franchise; have more money."

Have they not seen Nemesis? Into Darkness? Insurrection?

 

[fireproof78]

Have they not seen Nemesis? Into Darkness? Insurrection?

TFF has a longer time being regarded highly negatively by the fandom. It has a reputation.

 

[TheAdmiralty]

TFF has a longer time being regarded highly negatively by the fandom. It has a reputation.

Also the TNG movies and Abrams movies are viewed poorly in general. ST fans generally like the TOS movies so TFF stands out as the ugly stepchild so to speak to a lot of people.

 

[fireproof78]

Also the TNG movies and Abrams movies are viewed poorly in general. ST fans generally like the TOS movies so TFF stands out as the ugly stepchild so to speak to a lot of people.

The Abrams' films made money so they at least have that going for it. Also, I doubt they are viewed as poorly as the fandom tends to think.

 

[Smellmet]

Also the TNG movies and Abrams movies are viewed poorly in general. ST fans generally like the TOS movies so TFF stands out as the ugly stepchild so to speak to a lot of people.

The Abrams films are not viewed poorly. The first two are among the most critically acclaimed of the franchise with the third right up there too.

 

[dupersuper]

The Abrams films are not viewed poorly. The first two are among the most critically acclaimed of the franchise with the third right up there too.

Into Darkness was critically acclaimed? How sad.

 

[Smellmet]

Into Darkness was critically acclaimed? How sad.

It is a fact. It even shares the same 7.7 IMDB score that The Wrath of Khan has.