Why do Star Trek fans hate Voyager? - Link

[fireproof78]

Fan response, while a factor, can hardly be the only thing, when the reviews I read are so mixed.

The show also came at the wrong time. It should've come after DS9, like Berman wanted.

Yes, a smaller crew might have made things better, but it still means you need characters the audience cares about.

TOS got by with only 3 Central characters. Other shows like Xena and Hercules got by with 2 leads. VOY could've worked with a smaller main cast.

VOY could have been more unique in that it was cut off from the Federation, but could make allies along the way, or find resources, or make adjustments. It could have shown real drama in the crew making decisions that matter, things that could be mistakes, and consequences.

They shot themselves in the foot with their "No Support" part of the premise too.

It's true in any product. Creativity works well in the face of challenges, if you allow it to be so. Just look at Nick Meyers and Wrath of Khan.

To be fair, all Meyer did was transplant his Horatio Hornblower stuff to space. And Wrath of Khan had plenty of plot holes in it that ruin the plot if you think about it, but the audience was willing to overlook its many flaws.

Sure, Wrath of Khan has its flaws, but the characters are what make the flaws so easy to gloss over. I have a similar feeling with Abrams Trek, and several other films that I enjoy. I think TWOK is a fine film, with a running theme all the way through it that carries to film in a remarkable way. However, to my point was what Meyer was given to work with-8 drafts, all unrelated, a slashed budget, due to overages of TMP, limited effects, and sets, and costuming, and some serious negotiating with Nimoy to get him back.

My point is that fact that he had limits, and he is frank and honest about them in his book. He broke rules, was an inexperienced in Hollywood and had executive pressures, as well as maintaining production schedule. But, TWOK excels, even under those limits and with plot holes, because of the characters, because of the creativity that was forced through that difficulty.

Now, it is not fair to compare VOY to TWOK due to difference of circumstance and audience attitude. However, the point is, creative hurdles can be overcome with the right attitude and team. VOY lacked a consistent team and theme to carry through the difficult patches. Yes, I am aware of all the troubles that have been pointed out. Yes, I am aware of all the difficulties that VOY faced, such as being out during DS9's run and stretching the franchise too thin. I got that. However, it is clear that the creative staff was unwilling to go beyond the formulaic approach that had worked so well for TNG, but was ill suited for a changing audience.

Also, it was brought up that VOY had "no support" yet it was also brought up that they could have "friendly aliens." VOY did not have a consistent support system of starbases, like TNG or DS9, to justify the reset to the ship on a weekly basis, when the premise is "no support." Again, it strains credibility for the audience when you say the ship is lost, but then treat it like it's not a big deal.

So, again, it is not the fault of the audience that the creativity on VOY was rote and formulaic. I can accept the hurdles they faced and understand them, but at some point in time they should have been overcome. Occasionally, they were, which means it didn't have to be that way. I don't give any show or film a free pass because of production hurdles or limits.

As for a smaller crew, sure, that could work. But, then what do you do with that crew? You still need characters who go through changes, and you are willing to let make mistakes. Give them chances to succeed and fail, and let the consequences matter. That is the type of show VOY could have been. That is why it is so frustrating to me because it could have been something that grew out from under TNG's shadow.

I don't fault the fans. They responded to what they were given, some good and some bad.

 

[Melakon]

Why do ravens suddenly appear, every time you are near?

In my case, those aren't ravens. They're vultures, waiting for me to stop moving.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

You should think of them as bald seraphim, waiting to carry you to your next emanation!

Oh wait..

 

[Gov Kodos]

Melakon's Bogus Day

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUwPHTI47Lg[/yt]

 

[Melakon]

Every day is bogus for me lately.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

BUT have you bitten any birds heads off yet?

Make your cat go get you one. Practice.

 

[Melakon]

She certainly seems keen to make a lunge for the pigeons lately when I have the door open to let her look out and get a little air, but I get her back in before she can go far.

She seems to know when I'm writing about her, she just came over again after treats and canned food earlier. Maybe she can read. Also very vocal right now, might be another cat outside.

BUT have you bitten any birds heads off yet?

The only people that do that are the carnival sideshow geeks. And Ozzy Osbourne.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

How about a bungee type cord tied to her collar, then she can grab the pigeon and you can haul her back in quick and go for the kill.

 

[Gov Kodos]

This has potential for a Red Dwarf crossover where Lister and Cat come aboard Voyager while Kryton is stuck on board Starbug with a cranky Belanna, and Janeway is stuck in the holodeck with an arguing EMH and Rimmer.

 

[Melakon]

How about a bungee type cord tied to her collar, then she can grab the pigeon and you can haul her back in quick and go for the kill.

I get plenty of bird. Unfortunately, it's from the fried chicken joint up the street.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Like I said, BSG did a really good job with this

NuBSG fell apart after 2 seasons and also used the reset button.

That wasn't the point. I was talking about the look of the ship and their shortage of Colonial replacement parts and equipment etc., not the story.

Also, the "Voyager had helpfull aliens" bit was already addressed by another poster. Everything looked Starfleet-standard and pristine, like directly out of space dock. Incorporate a few different techs that look different, have energy shortings that actually affect life on the ship, turn off the flipping holodecks...that kind of stuff. Little things.

And mate, I actually like the show. That doesn't mean I don't get to have complaints.

 

[Anwar]

Sure, Wrath of Khan has its flaws, but the characters are what make the flaws so easy to gloss over.

It was easy because TOS only had three main characters, so it's easier to focus on others without screwing the 3 out of screentime. And even then it was only Saavik and David who got real characterization, with a teeny bit for Khan.

However, to my point was what Meyer was given to work with-8 drafts, all unrelated, a slashed budget, due to overages of TMP, limited effects, and sets, and costuming, and some serious negotiating with Nimoy to get him back.

They got to use the premade sets from TMP, they just dyed a bunch of leftover costumes from TMP and reused a lot of shots from TMP as well. It wasn't that bad.

But, TWOK excels, even under those limits and with plot holes, because of the characters, because of the creativity that was forced through that difficulty.

Plus an audience not out to dislike it before it started or burnt out writers.

However, it is clear that the creative staff was unwilling to go beyond the formulaic approach that had worked so well for TNG, but was ill suited for a changing audience.

I agree.

Again, it strains credibility for the audience when you say the ship is lost, but then treat it like it's not a big deal.

Well, again the problem was that this was not a unique scenario and had been conquered by Kirk Picard more than once.

As for a smaller crew, sure, that could work. But, then what do you do with that crew?

Now you can focus more easily on including more guest characters without screwing anyone in the main cast out of screentime the way a larger cast would've.

Of course, the "No Support" thing would have be dropped too so they could actually make use of their surroundings and we see them working to build up a power base (which the old premise forbade) and actually develop a Delta Quadrant plot instead of having them run away from everything.

 

[Anwar]

That wasn't the point. I was talking about the look of the ship and their shortage of Colonial replacement parts and equipment etc., not the story.

And that was accomplished by them having access to cheaper CGI tech that wasn't available in 1995.

Incorporate a few different techs that look different, have energy shortings that actually affect life on the ship, turn off the flipping holodecks...that kind of stuff. Little things.

And mate, I actually like the show. That doesn't mean I don't get to have complaints.

I agree, but for the most part it really shouldn't have been too hard replace stuff with Starfleet equipment. That's what the Engineering Replicators were for.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Not everything is replicatable.

The really important useful stuff probably isn't.

 

[MacLeod]

My memory is that people were looking forward to VOY, they weren't out to dislike it before it even aired.

If the writers were burnt out, that is not the fault of the audiance.

 

[Guy Gardener]

An article in Starlog?

Were we really forewarned?

 

[Melakon]

Starlog usually raved about anything new about to appear. For more analytical critiques, you had to read something less mainstream, like Cinefantastique or Cinefex.

 

[dub]

Hmmmmm. I bet it's possible most people who don't like VOY dislike it because it sucked in their opinions. Not because the captain was female. Not because they were wanting to hate it from the get-go. But because they simply watched it and didn't like it. But that's probably too simple of an explanation.

 

[Tosk]

Hmmmmm. I bet it's possible most people who don't like VOY dislike it because it sucked in their opinions. Not because the captain was female. Not because they were wanting to hate it from the get-go. But because they simply watched it and didn't like it. But that's probably too simple of an explanation.

Crazy talk!

 

[fireproof78]

Sure, Wrath of Khan has its flaws, but the characters are what make the flaws so easy to gloss over.

It was easy because TOS only had three main characters, so it's easier to focus on others without screwing the 3 out of screentime. And even then it was only Saavik and David who got real characterization, with a teeny bit for Khan.

However, to my point was what Meyer was given to work with-8 drafts, all unrelated, a slashed budget, due to overages of TMP, limited effects, and sets, and costuming, and some serious negotiating with Nimoy to get him back.

They got to use the premade sets from TMP, they just dyed a bunch of leftover costumes from TMP and reused a lot of shots from TMP as well. It wasn't that bad.



Plus an audience not out to dislike it before it started or burnt out writers.



I agree.

Again, it strains credibility for the audience when you say the ship is lost, but then treat it like it's not a big deal.

Well, again the problem was that this was not a unique scenario and had been conquered by Kirk Picard more than once.

As for a smaller crew, sure, that could work. But, then what do you do with that crew?

Now you can focus more easily on including more guest characters without screwing anyone in the main cast out of screentime the way a larger cast would've.

Of course, the "No Support" thing would have be dropped too so they could actually make use of their surroundings and we see them working to build up a power base (which the old premise forbade) and actually develop a Delta Quadrant plot instead of having them run away from everything.

First of all, Meyer's job was more difficult than such a quick description would make it sound like. Given that he was a new director to the Hollywood, that the studio was slashing the budget constantly, it was not exactly a cake walk. Meyer looked to overcome challenges and got the film going, writing a shooting script in about ten days. Oh, and that rewrite was uncredited and against guild rules.

In addition, sources are that TWOK was the Trek 09 of its day and Meyers the Abrams of his day. It was a fresh take on Trek, from someone unfamiliar with the franchise, that was slightly at odds with Roddenberry's vision at the time. Producers received death threats as part of the production process. So, I'm sorry, I will find it difficult to believe that Meyer and crew didn't have a difficult time.

As for the premise of VOY, well, it may have been done before, but there was no magic to bring them back this time, unlike other episodes of TOS or TNG. A more interesting take would have been to have them now find out immediately why they were there but have a "mystery" and figure it out. It isn't that it has been done before because it obviously has and will be again. It's that it was treated as rote, trite and unimportant. That comes from the top down, in my opinion.

A smaller cast would have helped, but again, it still needs to have characters that can be related too. The inconsistency of characterization is my biggest struggle with VOY. I can agree to a smaller cast, but the characters needed to be fleshed out much better.

Again, this is not on the audience. This comes back to how the show was produced. They were told one thing, it wasn't that, and that never really changed, aside from brief forays. It can't keep falling on the audience for VOY's poor reception because the audience doesn't have to accept everything with the Trek name on it.

In all honesty, VOY gets a bad wrap because Trek, overall, was in diminishing returns, but also it kept going for seven years, without really changing, with the same old mistakes still being made. I guess that means there is more of VOY to analyze and critique than TOS. Still an unfair comparison, but I can understand why it seems like VOY gets a harsh treatment.

Hmmmmm. I bet it's possible most people who don't like VOY dislike it because it sucked in their opinions. Not because the captain was female. Not because they were wanting to hate it from the get-go. But because they simply watched it and didn't like it. But that's probably too simple of an explanation.

Madness. Ramblings of a...who I'm kidding?