Why do people hate Nemesis?

[dru]

Too derivative (WoK). Too indulgent. Too f'ing much Data. Too f'ing much Picard. Cheap sets (Senate chamber) and deathly dull John Eves ships.

It. Just. Sucked. At. Every. Level.

At least TFF had the virtual of a few character moments and trying to say something about the human condition.

 

[Nardpuncher]

Come on, it wasn't THAT bad. I've met with various reasons as to why people didn't like it from "it didn't do well at the box office" to "Nemesis was bullshit". As a matter of fact, it's second favorite of mine to The Search for Spock. Sure, it did do bad at the box office so I've heard, but if Titanic didn't sell as many tickets, VHS's and limited edition DVD box sets (complete with calendars no less) as it did would it not be a good movie as well?

Ah yes.

Why do people hate shit movies.

Such questions of life shall forever be a mystery.

Well said.

Everyone should check the other thread in this Movie forum with the old guy reviewing Nemesis. He mostly brings up all the points everyone else already has...but he's funny and with the 4 parts together it's about 40 minutes...so quite in-depth. Also very funny.

 

[T'Cal]

Shinzon should have been played by Patrick Stewart all the way through. With a big scar on his face, and speaking with a slang. And the whole B4 subplot should have been cut in favor of something else.

And the marriage should have taken place at the end of the movie. First of all, there was no build up to that at all, one of the many issues that prevents Nemesis from working as a standalone movie. And prior to that marriage, Troi's life should have been really at stake to give the whole thing more intensity.

I've always felt the same way about having Stewart playing Shinzon. That would've been so cool. He could pull it off.

As for the marriage at the end, I love that idea!

The killing off of Data was handled very well in NEM. Data became as human as he could by sacrificing himself for his ship and crew. Still, as others have said, having B4 there cheapens it. I wouldn't have minded seeing Riker as captain of the Titan assisting the Enterprise, a la TUC where Sulu and the Excelsior help the E-A. I would've liked to learn that Worf would be taking over as Picard's XO after Data's death. This would've been in keeping with theme of him taking over an assignment after the death of a crewman as when Tasha died and when Ro was believed to have died (IIRC). Also, Georde should've gone on the Titan as Riker's XO; that was his pretty much role in INS and he did it very well anticipating his captain's orders (Riker: Georde, eject the core!" Georde: I just did." That was one of the better scenes in INS).

 

[KirkSpockTOSFan]

I actually didn't see anything wrong the movie, I actually like it. The only part of the movie I didn't care for was when Data died, I was real sad about that part. But of course I felt the same way when Kirk died in Genarations. I'm always gonna be sad when one of my favorite charcters dies, I'm just like why did they have to do that?

 

[Odo You Didn't!]

It wasn't Shinzon's motivation (or lack of) that bothered me, it was the fact that as soon as I saw him I spent the rest of the movie wondering if he actually was the guy who played the young Dr. Evil in Goldmember.

Yeah, Nemesis was fine, except the bits he was in...

 

[Hober Mallow]

-Shinzon made ZERO sense. "The Romulans were mean to me growing up, so I'm gonna destroy Earth!" Huh?!

I read this canned response so often, and have never for the life of me been able to figure out why this is such a sticking point with so many people. Number one, because there are so many great villains out there with even less motivation. Number two, they always go back to Khan who has the worst motivation ever "I marooned myself by choice and now I blame Kirk for what I did, I'm so smart but I've never done anything to prove that, wahhh."

What makes a great villain is how he illuminates the protagonist. Khan is a two-dimesnional villain, but he serves the main character, Kirk, and the story well. The movie is all about Kirk, who doesn't like to lose. So the villain has to be a character who is his physical and mental superior. Realistically, Kirk cannot defeat such an opponent. This is how we discover the key to Kirk's character. When Saavik finally learns the secret to how Kirk beat the Kobyshi Maru, we as the audience learn how Kirk is going to defeat Kahn -- he's going to cheat, change the rules, whatever he has to do to win. His weakness is that he's never had to face the consequences of winning, never faced the no-win scenario. The movie very carefully sets all of this up, and the villain serves this main story.

There's nothing like that in Nemesis. It's like John Logan tried to rewrite TWOK without actually understanding what made TWOK a successful story and Khan a successful villain.

 

[Tallis Rhul]

I thought Shinzon looked cool when his face went all white and veiny.

Apart from that he was a guy in purple leather. Eek!

Those 2 totally shallow comments aside, of course there was "too much" Data, Brent Spiner helped write the script! There were some nice things that came out of it, like the fact that not all Romulan ships are D'Deridex. The more Picard the better as far as I'm concerned, he's always entertaining. And he has a pointy head! <3

 

[BillJ]

I just felt like it was a huge missed opportunity. The story sounded cool. But I get to the theater, the story is just a mess and the actors just seemed so old and disinterested in what was going on around them. For all its flaws', the actors in The Undiscovered Country didn't feel old nor did it feel like they phoned in their performances.

 

[JarodRussell]

I just felt like it was a huge missed opportunity. The story sounded cool. But I get to the theater, the story is just a mess and the actors just seemed so old and disinterested in what was going on around them. For all its flaws', the actors in The Undiscovered Country didn't feel old nor did it feel like they phoned in their performances.

Yeah, something feels very wrong with this movie. Like none of the actors wanted to be there.

 

[Oceanborn_angel]

I wasn't really fond of Nemesis because it seemed like a rough first draft idea that needed some polishing. There were some really good ideas in it, like Shinzon being Picard's younger clone. But it tried too hard to be a clone of Wrath of Khan.

Oh, and one thing that has always bothered me is how much the character of Worf degraded from TNG to the movies. Here he was, the first Klingon Starfleet character after the Klingons being enemies of the Federation through TOS and her movies. Then they go and turn Worf into a comic relief character.

*Edit* I just thought of this because I'd read about the disfavor of Data "dying" in this movie, but I Was thinking of how B4 should have not been such a dunce. It would have been better if B4 was on the level of Data's intelligence, just not been given the same nurturing as Data. For most of the film he'd covertly be working for Shinzon, but over the course of the movie he'd experience the breadth of kindness from the Enterprise crew Data had been shown and change his mind about aiding in the destruction of everything the Federation stands for. So in effect it woulfd have been B4 who sacrificed himself instead of Data.

 

[Kirk1980]

I don't know if the clip has been deleted or not but there's one where Sirtis and Burton are questioned about why Nemesis did so poorly and Burton bluntly said, "Because it sucks!"

Couldn't have said it better myself.

And yes, for those who care, I'm back.

 

[BolianAuthor]

Come on, it wasn't THAT bad. I've met with various reasons as to why people didn't like it from "it didn't do well at the box office" to "Nemesis was bullshit". As a matter of fact, it's second favorite of mine to The Search for Spock. Sure, it did do bad at the box office so I've heard, but if Titanic didn't sell as many tickets, VHS's and limited edition DVD box sets (complete with calendars no less) as it did would it not be a good movie as well?

Here are the reasons...

- Dune buggy

- Shinzon

- Retard Data (B4)

- Data dying

- Shinzon

 

[Hober Mallow]

Also, Georde should've gone on the Titan as Riker's XO; that was his pretty much role in INS and he did it very well anticipating his captain's orders (Riker: Georde, eject the core!" Georde: I just did." That was one of the better scenes in INS).

That's my favorite Geordi moment of the entire TNG movie series.

 

[Random_Spock]

I didn't mind Nemesis myself. The plot wasn't the worst thing that I've ever seen... heck knows that I've seen worse movies.

But there are two things that drive me nuts there... the costuming, makeup (holy crap those were bad... take the Romulans this time around... man the make up was just bad... they didn't even look realistic...) and the film that they shot the outdoor scenes with... just cheap and terrible.

 

[cooleddie74]

Retard Data.

 

[Jeyl]

"Why do people hate Nemesis?"

Uh, because it treated the audience as though they were dumb founded idiots. Anyone who says they're making a Star Trek movie for the general audience and not for Star Trek doesn't really understand what they're talking about. Sacrificing many great stories for the sake of more audiences only weakens the film.

Stories ignored:
- Picards artificial heart that would have given Picard a nice edge in the whole "events of one's life" argument, and possibly tell Shinzon that he has the capabilities to be more than what Picard is knowing what mistakes were made. Good potential, but completely ignored.
- Sela's involvement. You would think that someone as important as Sela would have wanted to become a part of this move against the federation and Picard, but instead we just forget about her. Not saying she should have been a huge part, but a little something would have been nice.
- No mentioning of Lauxanna Troi and her reaction to Troi's wedding. She always made a big deal about it in the series, but I guess if they can forget about Spock's parents in STII, they can forget about Lauxanna.
- Lore. Honestly? No mention, warning or concern? He wasn't vaporized to atoms in the series, he was just deactivated.
- No Spock. Ya, I know they said he wasn't crucial to the story, but if they're making a story involving Romulas and it's potential for further peace with the Federation, wouldn't Spock have to become a part of that story to bring his story full circle?

 

[BillJ]

"Why do people hate Nemesis?"

Uh, because it treated the audience as though they were dumb founded idiots. Anyone who says they're making a Star Trek movie for the general audience and not for Star Trek doesn't really understand what they're talking about. Sacrificing many great stories for the sake of more audiences only weakens the film.

Stories ignored:
- Picards artificial heart that would have given Picard a nice edge in the whole "events of one's life" argument, and possibly tell Shinzon that he has the capabilities to be more than what Picard is knowing what mistakes were made. Good potential, but completely ignored.
- Sela's involvement. You would think that someone as important as Sela would have wanted to become a part of this move against the federation and Picard, but instead we just forget about her. Not saying she should have been a huge part, but a little something would have been nice.
- No mentioning of Lauxanna Troi and her reaction to Troi's wedding. She always made a big deal about it in the series, but I guess if they can forget about Spock's parents in STII, they can forget about Lauxanna.
- Lore. Honestly? No mention, warning or concern? He wasn't vaporized to atoms in the series, he was just deactivated.
- No Spock. Ya, I know they said he wasn't crucial to the story, but if they're making a story involving Romulas and it's potential for further peace with the Federation, wouldn't Spock have to become a part of that story to bring his story full circle?

Your reply should be: "Why some Trekkies hate Nemesis!". None of the things listed above would've made Nemesis a better movie. Do we really want Denise Crosby in a major motion picture? Would that have sold more tickets?

The problem is the basic story is just silly. Nothing above would've changed that. Nemesis is another example of a Trek script that shouldn't have made it past the development stage.

 

[RyuRoots]

"Why do people hate Nemesis?"

Uh, because it treated the audience as though they were dumb founded idiots. Anyone who says they're making a Star Trek movie for the general audience and not for Star Trek doesn't really understand what they're talking about. Sacrificing many great stories for the sake of more audiences only weakens the film.

Stories ignored:
- Picards artificial heart that would have given Picard a nice edge in the whole "events of one's life" argument, and possibly tell Shinzon that he has the capabilities to be more than what Picard is knowing what mistakes were made. Good potential, but completely ignored.
- Sela's involvement. You would think that someone as important as Sela would have wanted to become a part of this move against the federation and Picard, but instead we just forget about her. Not saying she should have been a huge part, but a little something would have been nice.
- No mentioning of Lauxanna Troi and her reaction to Troi's wedding. She always made a big deal about it in the series, but I guess if they can forget about Spock's parents in STII, they can forget about Lauxanna.
- Lore. Honestly? No mention, warning or concern? He wasn't vaporized to atoms in the series, he was just deactivated.
- No Spock. Ya, I know they said he wasn't crucial to the story, but if they're making a story involving Romulas and it's potential for further peace with the Federation, wouldn't Spock have to become a part of that story to bring his story full circle?

Your reply should be: "Why some Trekkies hate Nemesis!". None of the things listed above would've made Nemesis a better movie. Do we really want Denise Crosby in a major motion picture? Would that have sold more tickets?

The problem is the basic story is just silly. Nothing above would've changed that. Nemesis is another example of a Trek script that shouldn't have made it past the development stage.

Gotta say I agree. I would LIKE to have seen those things, but honestly, Picard vs his mini-me never should've made it past a suggestion that promptly got shot down.

 

[JarodRussell]

Nemesis is too dark and too depressive, that's why it failed at the box office. The cinematography, the music*, the acting is all creating a sense of tiredness. As I said before, the actors are in their worst shape in this movie. Like nobody prepared for the role. They look like they just came on the set and didn't care what they were doing.

Had Nemesis, still having the same dark story, been more cheerful, more positive, it would have been received much better.

* one example is on the DVD commentary. The introduction of the Enterprise. Jerry Goldsmith wanted to make it glorious, Stuart Baird wanted it to end on a sad note, because it was the last journey, and such... and that applied to the whole movie. Which is why the soundtrack of the entire movie sounds incredibly sad and slow. That creates an atmosphere that's not watchable.

There's simply no fun in this movie. Even the wedding scene is not enjoyable to watch. The laughter is fake, the actors look tired.

Compare the Undiscovered Country. It's the last movie of the TOS cast, it is dark. But it's not depressive. It's optimistic. It's fun. The characters are old, but the acting isn't tired. They are all there.

And the villain was badly, badly miscast. Imagine they had taken Eric Bana for that role, of the bald Romulan bad guy. That would have made one heck of a difference, to the quality of the scenes, and the financial result.

 

[Subspace]

I have No idea Because I thorougly Enjoyed it Myself.