Why do people hate Nemesis?

[RoJoHen]

-The wedding scene was retarded.
-Picard ordered Deanna to continue being mind-raped.
-B4 was an idiotic character. And apparently everybody forgot about Lore. This movie would been so much more interesting if B4 was replaced by Lore.
-Shinzon made ZERO sense. "The Romulans were mean to me growing up, so I'm gonna destroy Earth!" Huh?!
-Beverly may as well have not even been in it. She was short-changed in most of the movies, but it was even worse in this one.
-I don't care if you're gonna kill off Data, but can you do it in a way that actually makes me give a shit? Because Data flying through space, shooting a phaser at a fancy green glowy thing, and then having a back-up Data (B4) still be around doesn't really make for an emotional impact.

 

[BlueWolf]

The movie itself was good.

It went down the toilet when Data died.

QFT.

I loved the film, but I was very saddened when Data was killed off. That was completely unnecessary - they've gotten out of big scrapes (relatively) unharmed before. Plus, although it is implied that B-4 may someday "evolve" into Data, I don't find much comfort in that fact (because he is a much more primitive android, and more so than Data ever was ).

I think I'll just pretend that Data's death never happened.

 

[RyuRoots]

-Shinzon made ZERO sense. "The Romulans were mean to me growing up, so I'm gonna destroy Earth!" Huh?!

Amen! Shinzon is this film's biggest problem, followed very closely by the Scimitar. Having a clone villain for the final TNG movie is an idea that is on tenuous footing at best, and would need to be handled extremely well to be anything other than very lame. And it was not handled 'extremely well' to say the least. They tried to have this story that presented the question "Are we really so different?", but the answer is yes, I think. Shinzon is just a cookie-cutter evil psycho. Hell, he doesn't even LOOK remotely like Picard. And what's more, he doesn't even have something that even the worst cookie-cutter villains have; motivations you can make sense of. I mean, Khan had childish and stupid reasoning for his revenge, but at least he HAD a motivation you could understand. Nothing Shinzon does in this movie makes particular sense.

For that matter, why didn't the Romulans simply kill him? It seems infinitely more likely, seeing what we do of Romulan military/political affairs, that they'd just vaporize kid-Shinzon as soon as they found him instead of letting him live. No evidence of the plot, no chance he'll cause any shit later, problem solved. And the Scimitar is a page-long rant in itself.

Incidentally, I liked Data's death, I LOVED the wedding reception scene, the cut scene with Picard and Data afterwards, and the very ending. It's just the vast meat of the film that sucks. It makes me sad too, 'cause I want to like it for the things it gets right, but I really can't. Well, at least it's still better than half the TOS movies.

 

[RoJoHen]

Well, at least it's still better than half the TOS movies.

This I must completely disagree with.

 

[RyuRoots]

Well, at least it's still better than half the TOS movies.

This I must completely disagree with.

Well, don't worry. I'm sure most people are on your side for that one.

 

[T'Cal]

Unlike with GEN, I find that I am more tollerant of NEM with each viewing.

I want to like GEN so much, but I just can't.
It's THE ONLY one I can't look at.
Maybe once more sometime in the next decade....

I know, I know. Have you ever visited www.confusedmatthew.com? Matthew's take on GEN is spot on. He doesn't just rip on it, he makes some great suggestions on how it could've been so much better. It's worth the time to view it.

 

[T'Cal]

...Incidentally, I liked Data's death, I LOVED the wedding reception scene, the cut scene with Picard and Data afterwards, and the very ending. It's just the vast meat of the film that sucks. It makes me sad too, 'cause I want to like it for the things it gets right, but I really can't...

The wedding scene was spoiled for me by the use of Worf as a hung-over drunk. I never understood why the movie writers felt it necessary to misuse Worf and Data by trying to make them funny. It rarely worked well. Remember classic lines such as:

Mr. Tricorder. Hahahahaha!
Oh shit!
Lifeforms. You precious little lifeforms...
...and his fist forever ready for a knock down blow!
Move it, puny human!
It made me sick to my stomach!
It is a gorch!
Captain! I am experiencing aggressive tendencies!
Romulan ale. It should be illegal...

Ok. "Oh shit!" was kinda funny.

 

[Ward Fowler]

It has a few major plot holes, it botches up some major fan assumptions and it ripped off many details and ideas from The Best Movie Ever, Wrath Of Kahn.

I for one enjoyed it. It did what it was supposed to do: Entertain me for several hours.

That about sums it for me as well.

 

[Kelthaz]

Someone really needs to make this Nemesis Pictorial a sticky topic. It covers almost everything wrong with the movie oh so well.

 

[Orac Zen]

I don't hate the movie; I do think it's crap, though, for the reasons I mentioned here. I should have mentioned this in that post:

-Shinzon made ZERO sense. "The Romulans were mean to me growing up, so I'm gonna destroy Earth!" Huh?!

Agreed. A motiveless baddie, or one with as utterly idiotic a motive as Shinzon's, isn't even slightly compelling or interesting. Kinda kills the movie stone dead, even without its other flaws piling in on top of it.

And then there's this:

-I don't care if you're gonna kill off Data

Well, I do , but I agree with the rest of the point:

[...] but can you do it in a way that actually makes me give a shit? Because Data flying through space, shooting a phaser at a fancy green glowy thing, and then having a back-up Data (B4) still be around doesn't really make for an emotional impact.

Exactly. Killing off Data was one thing, but rendering the emotional impact of doing so completely and utterly meaningless about 10 minutes later (literally) is just stupid moviemaking.

 

[Itisnotlogical]

-B4 was an idiotic character. And apparently everybody forgot about Lore. This movie would been so much more interesting if B4 was replaced by Lore.

Well, considering Lore was SHOT TO DEATH, as in NOT BEING ABLE TO GET UP AGAIN, I'd find it kind of unrealistic for Lore to come back. Considering it was about 30 years since Lore last appeared, too, it would have been hard for newer moviegoers to understand why the character of Lore was significant.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

1) The director hadn't any clue about Star Trek, the characters, or science fiction in general. The director had only directed two movies prior to Nemesis. The director had only directed second-rate action movies prior to Nemesis. And all of that shows.
(Granted, Jonathan Frakes hadn't directed any movies either, but at least he had extensive experience in directing Star Trek episodes).


2) It's a boring and unoriginal TWOK rip-off (as opposed to STXI, which is also something of a TWOK rip-off, but at least not an as boring or as unoriginal one).
Shinzon = Khan
Thalaron generator = Genesis device
Bassen Rift = Mutara Nebula
Data sacrifices himself to save the ship = Spock sacrifices himself to save the ship
There's a possibility that Data lives on after all (B-4) = There's a possibility that Spock lives on after all (mind-meld with McCoy etc.)

Also, the crew discovers a flawed copy of Picard just after (another!) flawed copy of Data was discovered. Shinzon = B-4 = Lore.


3) Too many scenes were cut for unexplained reasons (why's Wesley wearing a Starfleet uniform etc.). It isn't like the final version of the movie was too long or lacked action.

 

[Yeoman Randi]

I should start a Why i love Gen thread!

http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=101231
Here ya go.

Why thank you kind sir! I have submitted my dissertation!

 

[JarodRussell]

Shinzon should have been played by Patrick Stewart all the way through. With a big scar on his face, and speaking with a slang. And the whole B4 subplot should have been cut in favor of something else.

And the marriage should have taken place at the end of the movie. First of all, there was no build up to that at all, one of the many issues that prevents Nemesis from working as a standalone movie. And prior to that marriage, Troi's life should have been really at stake to give the whole thing more intensity.

 

[Too Much Fun]

And the marriage should have taken place at the end of the movie. First of all, there was no build up to that at all, one of the many issues that prevents Nemesis from working as a standalone movie. And prior to that marriage, Troi's life should have been really at stake to give the whole thing more intensity.

Wow. SUCH a great idea. They wanted to be like "The Wrath of Khan" by having a killer ending that is poignant and moving. Instead of doing that by killing off a character (this time without even giving him a touching funeral, as the closest we got was the weak attempt at emotional resonance in the Picard/B4 conversation).

Having a wedding instead of a funeral would have been an excellent way to bring the cast together for a touching ending in a similar, but different and original way from how "The Wrath of Khan" did. That would have been a huge improvement over the frustrating downer we got instead and if Troi had been saved from more exciting danger than the lame mind rape stuff, it would have been even better.

 

[Red Ranger]

Why? There's so much to hate about it, aside from the cool Romulan ships. -- RR

 

[ChristopherPike]

Probably the greatest single idea I've heard about how to improve Nemesis yet. End the film with the marriage. Sometimes those events... births, weddings, funerals mark the last time a family unit are all together. How poignant that they build up to that, only to be missing an important member of the group. They could easily have had a funny scene with Data getting caught practising his "Blue Skies" gift onboard the ship, and getting embrassed about it. Then a quiet moment is left at the actual event, where he'd planned to perform it. Or even a holographic recording of the rehearsal played.

 

[Chrisisall]

Shinzon should have been played by Patrick Stewart all the way through. With a big scar on his face, and speaking with a slang.

I WISH you had been the producer on that movie.

 

[RyuRoots]

Or better yet, remove Shinzon altogether and have Tomalak or Sela be the main villain. They would've been more threatening, more convincing, and would've actually fit the description of a nemesis a bit better (I usually call this movie Star Trek: Villain).

 

[DWF]

Or better yet, remove Shinzon altogether and have Tomalak or Sela be the main villain. They would've been more threatening, more convincing, and would've actually fit the description of a nemesis a bit better (I usually call this movie Star Trek: Villain).

I can't see how either Sela or Tomalak would've been better, Sela wasn't much of a character and Tomalak wasn't much of a villain by the end of the series.