Why can't science and religion just get along?

[Miss Chicken]

Miss Chicken:

Well, this may or may not make a difference to you: I personally have had miracles and prayers from God come to pass in my life. I have run into demons. And I know (without any doubt) that both exist. If you don't believe. I can't convince you until you accept Him into your heart. That will be the only thing that will change your perspective on the issue.

There really isn't much more to say beyond that, which will really be all that convincing until that one thing happens.

Wishing you the best.


~JM.

My friend, who has visited Sai Baba's ashram, is convinced that he has seen Sai Baba perform miracles. He is just as certain that Sai Baba has visited his home in home by astral projection. Why shouldn't I believe him, rather than believe you? You can no more prove your God to me than he can prove his claims.

If there is a God why doesn't he just come down and prove his existence to me. And while he is at it he can also prove that he is worthy of worship which, I personally don't think the Christian God is worthy of. Any God who would let people be punished for eternity is worthy of worship.

At least Quakers don't believe that God would punish people in this way.

 

[StarryEyed]

I'm going to assume you were very angry when you wrote that and the anger overrode your rational thought processes.

Starry Eyed:

No. I was not angry. I was trying to point out the fact that you did not read as many books that I have that support the Bible and science to any great length. I know that if you had read the books I read, you probably would have a lot different out look then you do now.

But no one who doesn't have a relationship with God is going to read all of the books that I read.

How would you know how much I've read up on Christianity? Your claim to know a lot more about it than I do is presumptuous in the extreme. Maybe you do, maybe you don't. I've studied Christianity in depth since 1995 and I've known of Jack Chick since well before then. I don't know about you.

I am happy to hear that you made an effort to study Christianity. And I apologize if you did read any compelling books that support the Bible. But are you still getting the whole picture if you haven't asked God into your heart yet?

Let me ask you this. Do you believe there is a devil or demons out in the world?

I can tell you first hand that they exist.
Just as much as I can tell you that God exists.

One thing I took note of is your reading of books "involving the Bible and the science that backs it up." Yeah, what about the science that demolishes it? Your study is very incomplete if you omitted reading about that. You were not specific about just what you think science backs up about the Bible but I'd love to hear it.

You are not going to be won over by facts. I can give you the most compelling list of books or facts in the world. But facts are not going to win you over. Only your heart being open to the things of God and when you are willing to accept Him will.

Finally, I wasn't persecuting Jack Chick about his "beliefs" (except about the D & D thing), I dismissed him as a nutjob because of his denial of evolution. There are no beliefs involved there. We might have been able to speak of belief/disbelief regarding evolution 50 years ago but certainly not today. There is no more doubt of the fact of evolution than there is about the fact of a spherical Earth. Denial of evolution today is denial of reality. Period. Denial of reality is irrational and certainly disqualifies a person from being taken seriously.

I know how you feel. I was sitting right where you are at on the opposite side of the fence arguing with my good friend that evolution was correct and that there is no God.

Lord knows I couldn't imagine how wrong I was after I asked God into my heart a couple of years later.

Holy shit. You know Luther if you really want to continue this, it ought to be in a new thread. This one is about religious belief and scientific belief coexisting. I personally belief they can coexist as long as the religious belief does not make dogmatic claims which are testable by science and are shown to be false.

Luther, you make incredible claims (demons, devils, God exist) without any evidence to back them up. That's fine because those claims are not testable and there is no way to factually refute them. But you also claim that my view is incomplete because I have not "asked God into my heart yet". That has no place in this thread because the idea that facts are revealed to you by "asking God into your heart" is totally incompatible with science. Voices in your head are definitely NOT objective evidence.

Apparently, you are an evolution-denier yourself so why are you even in this thread?

INCREDIBLY, you claim that I will not be persuaded by facts. Dude, I am atheist/agnostic and a Secular Humanist! Facts are exactly the thing I am most impressed by and WILL be persuaded by! You got facts to lay on me? Bring them on!

 

[Miss Chicken]

^^^ Well said, StarryEyed.

I need facts, not faith, before I start believing.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Hey! Where did your sombrero go? You must've just changed that...it seemed like it was there just 5 minutes ago!

 

[Miss Chicken]

My sombrero? - I haven't worn one for months. However my profile picture still has me wearing a sombrero.

 

[scotpens]

. . . To me Buddhism makes much more sense than Christianity does. Of the Christian based faiths Quakerism makes the most sense to me - have you read many Quaker books?

Actually, when you look at the way the world is, classical paganism starts to make more and more sense. I mean, how could one God possibly run the whole show? He must at least have department heads, or executive vice-gods or something. These numerous deities are basically humans writ large, with all of the human weaknesses, failings and foibles. And the best way to gain their favor is to suck up to them, maybe sacrifice a goat or something, and try to stay off their shit list.

Besides, that old Mount Olympus bunch were FUN gods! They knew how to party.

Voices in your head are definitely NOT objective evidence.

There's an old joke: When we talk to God, it's called prayer. When God talks to us, it's called schizophrenia.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Miss Chicken--OH! That's where I saw the sombrero...silly me!

 

[Miss Chicken]

Actually, when you look at the way the world is, classical paganism starts to make more and more sense. I mean, how could one God possibly run the whole show? He must at least have department heads, or executive vice-gods or something. These numerous deities are basically humans writ large, with all of the human weaknesses, failings and foibles. And the best way to gain their favor is to suck up to them, maybe sacrifice a goat or something, and try to stay off their shit list.

If the Christian God had run the whole show he really should have delegated the designing of species to someone with more experience. The natural world is full of badly "designed" animals that are explainable by evolution, but not if they were designed by a perfect being.

The early biblical God liked animals sacrificed to Him which is another illogical thing about him (and other Gods as well). Do these Gods need to eat or did/do they just like the smell of burning flesh?

 

[StarryEyed]

Actually, when you look at the way the world is, classical paganism starts to make more and more sense. I mean, how could one God possibly run the whole show? He must at least have department heads, or executive vice-gods or something. These numerous deities are basically humans writ large, with all of the human weaknesses, failings and foibles. And the best way to gain their favor is to suck up to them, maybe sacrifice a goat or something, and try to stay off their shit list.

If the Christian God had run the whole show he really should have delegated the designing of species to someone with more experience. The natural world is full of badly "designed" animals that are explainable by evolution, but not if their were designed by a perfect being.

Including us.

The human brain, appendix, wisdom teeth and tail-bone are examples. As are the male prostate and the female clitoris. None of these things make any sense at all if you assume an intelligent designer but perfect sense when looked at in the context of evolution.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Let me ask you this. Do you believe there is a devil or demons out in the world?

I can tell you first hand that they exist.
Just as much as I can tell you that God exists.

That's called the darkwing_duck defence. Suffices to say, it doesn't work very well.

I know how you feel. I was sitting right where you are at on the opposite side of the fence arguing with my good friend that evolution was correct and that there is no God.

Lord knows I couldn't imagine how wrong I was after I asked God into my heart a couple of years later.

Well, I guess this is the reason why for some people science and religion can't just get along. Luckily, a lot of people here have come forward to say that believing in a deity doesn't mean you have to throw science out of the window.

Oh, and you will note that a lot of religions try and attack the Bible by twisting the truth to fit their viewpoint of it. This has spawned many different religions based on the Bible.

I mean, why attack something if it doesn't have any value?
The Devil hates the Bible that is why he created a bunch of religions that twist the truth of it.

Mmh, and this is the Lookingglassman defence. You are really throwing everything on the floor, aren't you.

Please do not shoot the messenger, but I follow the...

http://kingjamesbible.com/

How... unsurprising.

 

[Kestra]

Science and religion can coexist just fine. I do wish they were both equally adaptive, though that rarely seems to be the case. I feel lucky that I was raised in an environment where I feel little conflict between the two.

 

[JarodRussell]

Actually, when you look at the way the world is, classical paganism starts to make more and more sense. I mean, how could one God possibly run the whole show? He must at least have department heads, or executive vice-gods or something. These numerous deities are basically humans writ large, with all of the human weaknesses, failings and foibles. And the best way to gain their favor is to suck up to them, maybe sacrifice a goat or something, and try to stay off their shit list.

If the Christian God had run the whole show he really should have delegated the designing of species to someone with more experience. The natural world is full of badly "designed" animals that are explainable by evolution, but not if they were designed by a perfect being.

The early biblical God liked animals sacrificed to Him which is another illogical thing about him (and other Gods as well). Do these Gods need to eat or did/do they just like the smell of burning flesh?

Christian/Muslim/Jewish mythology is a total mess. Dozens of different authors from dozens of different decades, and all these fantasy stories are slapped together in one book. Then there are so many translation errors. Anyone who takes these books word for word is not right in his mind. The bible tells you just as much about our universe as Lord of the Rings or the Nibelung saga. They share the same level of credibility.

At best you can interpret some metaphorical meaning, but you really have to keep in mind what time the original text was written in and who could have possibly written it to make a valid interpretation.

 

[greenguy]

Anyone who claims to have seen or experienced undocumented lifeforms or has heard voices needs to seek professional help. You either have a serious mental disorder and/or you ingested a hallucinogen. This is what all visions in the past were based off of---tripping out over some moldy food or accidentally eating the greens from a nightshade plant (potato, tomato, eggplant, etc.)

 

[Kirby]

^ That would describe me as well. Not to mention that my kids are in Catholic school, and they're learning about all that stuff (including evolution), too.

My son is in Catholic school too, and he is learning all sorts of science.

I truly believe that most people can either accept both science and religion and if they're just on one side of the fence, they can respect the other side. It's the few hard-core extremists on either side that are the ones that get the publicity, I blame the media.

 

[tkron]

I look at it this way: God created the dinosaur. He wasn't happy with them, so he cleaned the slate with a big rock and tried again. Some dinosaurs survived and became birds.

God wasn't happy with the humans of Noah's generation, so he told Noah to build a big boat and wiped out most of the human population with a big flood. Again, some of his creations survived.

What does that tell you? That evolution is God's way of trying different things.

 

[KimMH]

^interesting point. I too believe dinosaurs were God's first idea. Not mine to wonder why He changed His mind.

I think people who don't have enough room for faith and science in their lives are living half a life. Reconciling the two is a lifelong adventure well worth the time. People who choose one over the other are missing a much bigger picture. If the human mind could grasp all the intricies of the cosmos it'd be a very poor one indeed. Let science find evidence of Faith. I am confident it will all work out.

You say I'm weak minded for having Faith someone bigger than me is in charge? I'd say a leap of that kind of faith takes a fairly strong person.

 

[Lindley]

See, that's my basic problem with the whole "God" concept. Any being who really knew everything and had no questions left to ask would have gone insane with boredom eternities ago.

Not with an infinity of activity going on within Him that by definition doesn't run out.

There are hundreds of channels on my TV, but only anything worthwhile on a few of them, and that only occasionally. If there were an infinite number of channels I rather doubt the situation would change significantly.

 

[JarodRussell]

Why does the Almighty have to change his mind? If he is Almighty, he knows the outcome before it happened.

 

[TheBrew]

Wouldn't it be ironic if God is a scientist?

I think He is that and FAR beyond that.

Actually, he couldn't be a scientist because he already knows everything. The scientific method is of no use to an omniscient being.

I think the concept of God works much better if he's NOT omniscient.

 

[KimMH]

interesting; yes. Godlike; no.