Why can't science and religion just get along?

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous' started by Infinitus, May 20, 2010.

  1. Miss Chicken

    Miss Chicken Little three legged cat with attitude Admiral

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    If a God exists like the God in that track he is unworthy of worship.

    He created an imperfect being, He gets to decide what is a sin and what isn't, He demands they believe in them on faith alone in a world in which many different religion exist and it is only pot chance if you are bought up in the right one, he has purposely set the bar so high that no-one can go a life without sinning, and than this cruel God sends them to Hell. He is far worse than the people who he is punishing.

    I refuse to believe that their is a God that would condemn good men such as Ghandi to Hell just because he wasn't a Christian.
     
  2. iguana_tonante

    iguana_tonante Admiral Admiral

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    Nerys Ghemor, while I appreciate your reply, yours a very long and not completely satisfactory answer to a very simple question.

    It's basically a rehash of the free will defense, but it fails to address two important points. First of all, the existence of "natural evils" (i.e. earthquakes, illness, and everything than imparts suffering without any conscious agent): they cannot be considered consequences of human "sin" except in the most twisted world view. Second, less pragmatically but more importantly, since God is both all-knowing an all-powerful, why couldn't he build a world where there is the possibility of choosing evil, but the possibility is never actually realized? Since I can think of that possibility, I'm sure God could have built the world this way if he wanted.

    That's not to say that the problem of evil is a proof against God: it is not. Personally, I would be more than satisfied with an answer that God is limited in action or in knowledge in some way. It's the insistence of the all-knowing, all-powerful and benevolent God that raises the question.

    Another point that your statement address is that you point out, correctly, that "to bring love into full perfection, it must be reciprocated freely by two beings capable of fully independent will". That's right, two beings. Then why didn't God created a "Goddess" (for lack of a better term), equal to him in power, knowledge and benevolence, instead of a multitude of limited, mortal, weak followers? Is something that he can't do? What does it say that on the nature of God's love?

    Again, not to disparage your beliefs, but it looks to me that there are several logical inconsistencies in your argument.
     
  3. Amaris

    Amaris Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    "Dammit! I dropped my dollar down this storm drain. That's the last time I wear khaki shorts with no pockets." - Allen
     
  4. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And why does he punish his own creations for that? Why did he put the tree there to begin with? And why did he lie about the tree? He said that they would die if they ate the fruit. Only the snake tells them that this isn't the case.

    It is a tale of superior powers oppressing the masses. Preventing them from getting educated, because if they are educated they can't be controlled anymore. And if they can't be controlled, they are a risk, and you need to punish them even harder or even get rid of them. I find it very funny that this is right at the beginning of the Bible, especially when you think about how the church controlled the masses for a long time (people couldn't read, they didn't understand Latin, so they were forced to believe what they were told. Until snakes came by and told them they had a choice. Gutenberg, Luther, Descartes, Kant, for example).

    The forbidden fruit of the Tree of All Knowledge, or the Tree of Knowledge of Good And Evil, that's education. Even better: it is science.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2010
  5. Lindley

    Lindley Moderator with a Soul Premium Member

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    See, that's my basic problem with the whole "God" concept. Any being who really knew everything and had no questions left to ask would have gone insane with boredom eternities ago.

    Perhaps we're just God's entertainment, then. A cosmic reality show!

    Or perhaps we're the answer to the old question----can God create a problem so complex even He cannot solve it?
     
  6. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And: who created God?

    As stated some time before, that's the problem that comes with our language. We can always ask something on top of it, but that doesn't mean it has to exist. What came before the beginning of all? Who is the creator of the creator of all?

    And if you say: "no, it's not possible, God is the absolute, the beginning and the end, and has no creator", why don't you go one step below and say: "the universe is the absolute, it has no creator, ergo God doesn't exist"?
     
  7. StarryEyed

    StarryEyed Commodore Commodore

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    I'm going to assume you were very angry when you wrote that and the anger overrode your rational thought processes.

    How would you know how much I've read up on Christianity? Your claim to know a lot more about it than I do is presumptuous in the extreme. Maybe you do, maybe you don't. I've studied Christianity in depth since 1995 and I've known of Jack Chick since well before then. I don't know about you.

    One thing I took note of is your reading of books "involving the Bible and the science that backs it up." Yeah, what about the science that demolishes it? Your study is very incomplete if you omitted reading about that. You were not specific about just what you think science backs up about the Bible but I'd love to hear it.

    Finally, I wasn't persecuting Jack Chick about his "beliefs" (except about the D & D thing), I dismissed him as a nutjob because of his denial of evolution. There are no beliefs involved there. We might have been able to speak of belief/disbelief regarding evolution 50 years ago but certainly not today. There is no more doubt of the fact of evolution than there is about the fact of a spherical Earth. Denial of evolution today is denial of reality. Period. Denial of reality is irrational and certainly disqualifies a person from being taken seriously.
     
  8. Luther Sloan

    Luther Sloan Captain Captain

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    Starry Eyed:

    No. I was not angry. I was trying to point out the fact that you did not read as many books that I have that support the Bible and science to any great length. I know that if you had read the books I read, you probably would have a lot different out look then you do now.

    But no one who doesn't have a relationship with God is going to read all of the books that I read.

    I am happy to hear that you made an effort to study Christianity. And I apologize if you did read any compelling books that support the Bible. But are you still getting the whole picture if you haven't asked God into your heart yet?

    Let me ask you this. Do you believe there is a devil or demons out in the world?

    I can tell you first hand that they exist.
    Just as much as I can tell you that God exists.

    You are not going to be won over by facts. I can give you the most compelling list of books or facts in the world. But facts are not going to win you over. Only your heart being open to the things of God and when you are willing to accept Him will.

    I know how you feel. I was sitting right where you are at on the opposite side of the fence arguing with my good friend that evolution was correct and that there is no God.

    Lord knows I couldn't imagine how wrong I was after I asked God into my heart a couple of years later.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2010
  9. Miss Chicken

    Miss Chicken Little three legged cat with attitude Admiral

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    You do realise that the vast majority of people who believe in God believe in evolution too? Belief in one doesn't exclude the belief in the other.

    And another question - have you read books about religions other than Christianity. To me Buddhism makes much more sense than Christianity does. Of the Christian based faiths Quakerism makes the most sense to me - have you read many Quaker books?
     
  10. Luther Sloan

    Luther Sloan Captain Captain

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    Oh, and sorry folks. I am not going to reply to everyone in this thread. No good will come of it. This is obviously a very touchy subject that can get a lot folks really worked up.

    You will either decide to accept God one day or you won't. I'm just letting you guys know that my relationship with God is real and has had a profound impact on my life. And I hope someday you will come around and do the same.
     
  11. Miss Chicken

    Miss Chicken Little three legged cat with attitude Admiral

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    What God should we accept? Thee are a myriad of different religions out there and most of them are as valid as the one you follow, and their devotees are just as sure that they are on the right path as you are.

    And if you are unwilling to reply to people you should be having this discussion via PMs rather than discussing it in a open forum. You seem to be the person that is getting touchy in this thread.
     
  12. Lindley

    Lindley Moderator with a Soul Premium Member

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    Now that I think about it, actually, that would explain quantum mechanics.....
     
  13. Luther Sloan

    Luther Sloan Captain Captain

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    God.

    And His Word (i.e. the Bible).

    Oh, and you will note that a lot of religions try and attack the Bible by twisting the truth to fit their viewpoint of it. This has spawned many different religions based on the Bible.

    I mean, why attack something if it doesn't have any value?
    The Devil hates the Bible that is why he created a bunch of religions that twist the truth of it.
     
  14. 1001001

    1001001 Serial Canon Violator Moderator

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    And now you have proven my point more eloquently than I ever could.

    Religious fundamentalists are trapped in their own stories. They just simply believe and accept, without critical analysis or modification based on evidence. This is, in the final analysis, why science and (certain) religions cannot get along: Science is amenable to change based on new data. Fundamentalism is not.

    How can knowledge and understanding of creation separate us from the Creator?

    PS: My relationship with God is just fine.

    :techman:
     
  15. Miss Chicken

    Miss Chicken Little three legged cat with attitude Admiral

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    Luther Sloane - I have a friend who is a devotee of Sai Baba. He believes that the writing of Sai Baba are the truth, as much as you believe that the Bible is the truth. As far as I can see it probably neither religion is the absolute truth and probably both have some truth in them. If there is a God I think there would be a bit of him in all religions.

    Find what is common in all religions and that is most likely the truth.
     
  16. Lindley

    Lindley Moderator with a Soul Premium Member

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    And which of the various translations is to be considered definitive? Or do you read the original Aramaic directly?
     
  17. Nerys Ghemor

    Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    God never said a thing about it being an instant death--not at all. Given that, for them not to instantly die is not at all a lie. If we opt for the interpretation that what's being spoken of is the death of the body, causes of death can either be instant, or they can take many, many years--one can in effect be a "dead man walking" if the cause is something incurable. It happened after a long period of time had passed, but eventually did come to pass.

    Now the other option for interpretation, which is also quite valid and I think BOTH may actually be in play, is that the death in question is a spiritual death, that our souls will suffer death. I saw one speculative fiction author of a spiritual bent put this postulate forward too--her terms were the "lesser death" (that of the body) and the "greater death" (that of the soul). This may also be what's going on there too, that the "greater death" was the subject of discussion.

    Again, not entirely sure which--or if both--were going on here, but either one presents a valid understanding in my opinion.

    I'm going to hold on my next remark because it actually ties into what I was about to say...

    I think that the sin wasn't that we came to know all these things--I think it's as simple as choosing to get ahead of ourselves and like I said, I do not see anything to suggest that a full curriculum wouldn't have been in store for us had things continued without making the choice to jump ahead of plan. Given how early in the process we interrupted things, we never did find out if this was the case. However, I do see early evidence that we were indeed being taught.

    It's quite interesting when you look at the passage where God doesn't just drop Adam into the Garden with Eve already there...He lets Adam figure out that he has a need for a companion like him but not himself--lets him understand that he cannot connect with the animals at the level he requires, lets him observe the relationship of the animals to each other, and then, once Adam understands this, ensouls a companion for him. Adam may be at the very beginning of the process, but he is actually being taught how to observe and to reason. (Which does put a rather funny image in my head of Adam and Eve eventually getting to the point of lab experiments and having to turn in a lab report to the Almighty...who knows? :lol: ) There's no telling just how many more lessons might have been prepared for us in this fashion, such that our learning and our moral understanding would have kept pace with each other.

    One of the other interesting things I notice is that while upon expulsion from the Garden the Tree of Life was put under guard--that Life is exactly what we are offered by Jesus. Given that we messed up before yet a way was still found for this to happen, it doesn't seem at all implausible that the plan we interrupted wouldn't have included knowledge. (It also demonstrates to me that even when we did mess up, God's prime focus was on helping us fix it, whereas you are only seeing the aspect of punishment.)

    As for humans controlling each other--you bet that's a bad thing because frankly, we do not have the wherewithal to handle that level of power over each other. But, I have no reason to think God has the same problem.

    Not with an infinity of activity going on within Him that by definition doesn't run out.
     
  18. Luther Sloan

    Luther Sloan Captain Captain

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    Miss Chicken:

    Well, this may or may not make a difference to you: I personally have had miracles and prayers from God come to pass in my life. I have run into demons. And I know (without any doubt) that both exist. If you don't believe. I can't convince you until you accept Him into your heart. That will be the only thing that will change your perspective on the issue.

    There really isn't much more to say beyond that, which will really be all that convincing until that one thing happens.

    Wishing you the best.


    ~JM.
     
  19. Luther Sloan

    Luther Sloan Captain Captain

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    Please do not shoot the messenger, but I follow the...

    http://kingjamesbible.com/
     
  20. Nerys Ghemor

    Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Lindley--Just an FYI...only a small portion of the Bible is written in Aramaic. Its three languages are Hebrew, with a bit of Aramaic in the OT, and a Koine Greek dialect with Semitic influences, in the NT. It is my hope to do a comprehensive study of these languages someday. I've already made a start with Greek, but have a long way to go. Hebrew--I think I will probably need a real-life instructor, but I definitely want to do it someday.