Who was longest serving ensign in starfleet

[Sector 7]

Isn't it a tie between Mayweather and Hoshi Sato? As I remember, they both were still ensigns in the horrendous ENT finale, These Are The Voyages, while Reed was still a full lieutenant. They should've been at least full lieutenants after 10 years, and Reed should've made lieutenant commander. -- RR

It helps if you consider what that episode "really" was (according to the novels):

Spoiler: The Good That Men Do

It was not accurate; the holo program was altered by Section 31. The 'real' events of that episode did not take place 10 years later, but rather in the present.

Go ahead, *try* to tell me you don't think that was an improvement over what we saw onscreen. I dare you.

It was an abomination and should be EXCLUDED from canon.

Kim is probably a close second, I am not Spock. But the evidence seems to fall on Mayweather and Sato being at ensign for 10 years vs. Kim's seven. Unfortunately, Babaganoosh, the morsel you posted from a novel isn't canon. Nice to consider, and yes, definitely better than TATV, but what counts is onscreen. -- RR, slave to canon

Babaganoosh, the morsel you posted from a novel isn't canon. Nice to consider, and yes, definitely better than TATV, but what counts is onscreen.

Babaganoosh

I don't care.

TATV *deserves* to be contradicted. Anything that does so gets a special pass.

You'll definitely not ever look at that episode the same way again, once you read TGTMD. (Are you seriously trying to tell me that TATV, as aired, makes any kind of sense?)

I still agree. If I could undo any episode in all of Trek, that would be Number One (although it smelled like Number Two)!

 

[USS Excelsior]

No, that doesn't count. We saw Harry as Captain in an alternate timeline, where Voyager had been in the DQ/BQ for 16 more years, during which time the ship was (presumably) in contact with Starfleet. So over those years, Harry may have been promoted long-distance via Starfleet. Or, he may have jumped a rank, as Geordi seemed to, it's impossible to say.

Since in that alternate timeline that Tuvok's neurological condition would have become serious a few years after Endgame he probably would have been relieved of duty. So Paris and Kim could have been promoted up one rank at that time. Also it's not clear if Chakotay died before or after they got home, so if he died before that could have been an opportunity to promoted up yet another rank before getting home.

 

[The Wormhole]

Loathe though I am to defend TATV, I'm afraid I have to express the opinion the the novels are stepping too far out of line with their direct contradiction of it. Yes, TATV sucked, was a horrible way to end the series, and Trip's death was poorly thought out and easily avoidable. None of that is denied. But guess what, it still happened. It is a canonical episode of Star Trek, and deserves to be recognized as such just as much as City on the Edge of Forever or Best of Both Worlds. And get over Trip's death. It happened. Deal with it. Or do you people actually go to graveyards and write "NOT.DEAD." on headstones?

So, in conclusion, TATV is canon, so Travis Mayweather and Hoshi Sato are the longest serving Ensigns.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Loathe though I am to defend TATV, I'm afraid I have to express the opinion the the novels are stepping too far out of line with their direct contradiction of it. Yes, TATV sucked, was a horrible way to end the series, and Trip's death was poorly thought out and easily avoidable. None of that is denied. But guess what, it still happened. It is a canonical episode of Star Trek, and deserves to be recognized as such just as much as City on the Edge of Forever or Best of Both Worlds. And get over Trip's death. It happened. Deal with it. Or do you people actually go to graveyards and write "NOT.DEAD." on headstones?

The problem with TATV is NOT that Trip died. If you think that's the only reason we hate it, you're wrong. If Trip had died for a meaningful purpose, that would be one thing. But TATV is so universally awful that it deserves to be contradicted. Anything that contradicts TATV, or makes it irrelevant, or changes it so that it means something, is *effectively* canon. Even if it's a novel. TATV does not deserve to be recognized as anything but what it was: a holodeck re-creation of events. Even if you don't like The Good That Men Do, you must realize that...TATV still took place entirely on the holodeck. Whatever you think really happened, it wasn't what TATV showed. And since TGTMD improved so much on it, that novel deserves a special level of recognition.

 

[The Wormhole]

Holodeck recreation or not, it is a depiction of the founding of the Federation, one of the most important events in the history of Star Trek. There would be hundreds of documents about the time that a historical account of it as a holodeck program should be reasonably accurate. The ranks of Archer and his crew in 2161 would be well known, as would the year the NX-01 was decommissioned. The idea that anyone, be they Section 31 or anyone, altered the records to make it seem like all this happened in 2161 when it in fact happened years earlier simply defies logic.

And if Trip's death isn't the issue here, then why did the novels even bother keep him alive? Since we seem to have a hate-on for TATV and are willing to contradict it at every turn, why not just give him a new, better, more heroic death?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Holodeck recreation or not, it is a depiction of the founding of the Federation, one of the most important events in the history of Star Trek. There would be hundreds of documents about the time that a historical account of it as a holodeck program should be reasonably accurate. The ranks of Archer and his crew in 2161 would be well known, as would the year the NX-01 was decommissioned. The idea that anyone, be they Section 31 or anyone, altered the records to make it seem like all this happened in 2161 when it in fact happened years earlier simply defies logic.

Actually we never specifically heard the word 'Federation' in that episode - except by Troi. She said that this would all lead TO the Federation. So the only way it makes sense, given that, is that it's something else - the Coalition of Planets, as the books state.

And if Trip's death isn't the issue here, then why did the novels even bother keep him alive?

Because the manner in which he died, sucked. I don't suppose you remember the bit where, as Trip is being wheeled into the medical scanner, he turns to Archer and WINKS?

Since we seem to have a hate-on for TATV and are willing to contradict it at every turn

Why wouldn't we? It's universally hated. It's *objectively* bad.

why not just give him a new, better, more heroic death?

That's possible. But it's not what was done.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Loathe though I am to defend TATV, I'm afraid I have to express the opinion the the novels are stepping too far out of line with their direct contradiction of it. Yes, TATV sucked, was a horrible way to end the series, and Trip's death was poorly thought out and easily avoidable. None of that is denied. But guess what, it still happened. It is a canonical episode of Star Trek, and deserves to be recognized as such just as much as City on the Edge of Forever or Best of Both Worlds. And get over Trip's death. It happened. Deal with it. Or do you people actually go to graveyards and write "NOT.DEAD." on headstones?

So, in conclusion, TATV is canon, so Travis Mayweather and Hoshi Sato are the longest serving Ensigns.

That's my thoughts. There's no "deserves to be contradicted" and fans certainly don't get to be the arbiter of that criteria.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

There's no "deserves to be contradicted"

Why not?

I'm sure there have been episodes that you have hated as much as this one (I'm sure you're not actually claiming to *like* TATV. At least I hope not!). Don't you prefer to forget they ever happened?

and fans certainly don't get to be the arbiter of that criteria.

Think of it this way. The Good That Men Do (and its followups) may not be *strict* canon, but they are *effective* canon. Simply because of one thing: ENT was cancelled, and we will most likely never see this time period onscreen again. The only place we *will* see it is in the novels.

Also, as I already pointed out...apart from the scenes set on the Enterprise-D, all of that episode is still a holodeck program. So that automatically calls its authenticity into question right there; even if you don't like the novels, you can take some comfort in *that*.

 

[ria 75]

You'll definitely not ever look at that episode the same way again, once you read TGTMD. (Are you seriously trying to tell me that TATV, as aired, makes any kind of sense?)

Is there a glossary of those abbreviations somewhere?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

You'll definitely not ever look at that episode the same way again, once you read TGTMD. (Are you seriously trying to tell me that TATV, as aired, makes any kind of sense?)

Is there a glossary of those abbreviations somewhere?

TGTMD = The Good That Men Do (novel)
TATV = "These Are The Voyages..." (final ENT episode)

Here are some good sites to figure all this out:

Memory Alpha
Memory Beta

 

[AlanC9]

Actually current policies have some surprising similarities. There is still a "flag list" that Captains rise up to flag rank (or oblivion), and both navies have Commander ranks who are appointed to command ships.

Sure, such a list exists. But how you get on it, and how you get bumped off it, are completely different between now and then. What's the chance things will stay the way they are now for several more centuries?

In either navy it is highly unlikely that someone would spend 40 years in the fleet while showing no aptitude for it.

Ummm.... I gotta call straw man here. Nobody said that alternate Picard had no aptitude for being in Starfleet. He just didn't show any sign of being worthy of higher duties.

And it was quite common for lieutenants to stay lieutenants forever in the old RN even if they were competent. While the very best of them would presumably get a promotion somehow, since people were looking out for the good of the service, if you didn't achieve some kind of distinction and didn't have a patron (or your patron died/retired before getting you posted to captain), you were stuck.

The navy of Nelson's time might have been officered by the priveliged classes but they would never have been as successful as they were if ability was not important. Nelson is remembered as a very senior Admiral but in fact there were many more senior in the service, he was just so damn good.

Recognizing that you've got an absolute military genius in your ranks is not at all the same thing as recognizing and rewarding talent generally.

Actually, a career track like the alternate Picard's was quite common in the pre-modern Royal Navy. To get past lieutenant required either influence or distinction.

Well the same really applies in the modern navy - but if you have neither you are in all likelihood likely to leave.

I thought too much time-in-grade gets you kicked out these days. Regardless, different societies can handle this sort of thing in different ways.

I think there's a problem with the episode because it doesn't square with Picard's interest in archaeology. If Starfleet isn't working out, why didn't he leave to do that? But I don't see a problem with older lieutenants per se.

Sure, alternate Picard would have been working alongside kids. But would this be a problem in his culture?

Well - yes. Humanity may be in general more cuddly in the 24th century but I imagine pride and self-esteem are still important concerns.

But that assumes all kinds of things about how Federation culture assigns status, which aren't necessarily true even for our culture. Back when I worked as a copyeditor, the age range of people in that job ranged from people in their 20s to people in their 60s. The track out of being a copyeditor went through management, and the older ones had either no interest in that or no aptitude for it. So they stayed where they were, and were quite happy with it from what I could see. Granted, the senior ones earned more, but that's not really relevant to TNG-era culture

 

[AlanC9]

Also, as I already pointed out...apart from the scenes set on the Enterprise-D, all of that episode is still a holodeck program. So that automatically calls its authenticity into question right there; even if you don't like the novels, you can take some comfort in *that*.

Did we ever have a contest for best fan version of what actually happened in the period depicted by the TATV holoprogram?

 

[USS KG5]

Sure, such a list exists. But how you get on it, and how you get bumped off it, are completely different between now and then. What's the chance things will stay the way they are now for several more centuries?

Well eliminating the privelige from the Royal Navy system (not to mention the other armed forces) has been a slow and painful process over the years made necessary to avoid inbred toffs losing battles through incompetence.

However - it is often exagerrated. While many officers had problems making Commander without a sponsor many very capable officers were promoted just through sheer skill recognised by their superiors.

As for why it would continue for a few more centuries, why not? It has worked for several centuries and been adopted by other navies and indeed other services. Starfleet may have thousands of ships but doubtless hand-picks Captains for each and every one based on seniority and skills.

Ummm.... I gotta call straw man here. Nobody said that alternate Picard had no aptitude for being in Starfleet. He just didn't show any sign of being worthy of higher duties.

There was no intentional straw man there. It is just my personal opinion that if you only manage one, probably borderline automatic, promotion in 40 years you need to reconsider your career. Of course, we know that "nu-Picard" lacks that level of self-awareness.

And it was quite common for lieutenants to stay lieutenants forever in the old RN even if they were competent. While the very best of them would presumably get a promotion somehow, since people were looking out for the good of the service, if you didn't achieve some kind of distinction and didn't have a patron (or your patron died/retired before getting you posted to captain), you were stuck.

The main difference in the modern navy is that such officers now make Lt. Cmdr. Then the hand-picking starts.

I can quite believe in Picard's time that you can get stuck at Lt. Cmdr and happily retire at that rank, maybe even Lt., but Lt. (jg)? It just seems extremely menial when we know lads a couple of years out of the academy get to that rank.

I think there's a problem with the episode because it doesn't square with Picard's interest in archaeology. If Starfleet isn't working out, why didn't he leave to do that? But I don't see a problem with older lieutenants per se.

As I said, maybe full Lt. It seems possible there is a big jump between Lt. (jg) and Lt. in Starfleet, as big as that between Lt. Cmdr and Cmdr. in modern navies. This might explain a lot.

But that assumes all kinds of things about how Federation culture assigns status, which aren't necessarily true even for our culture. Back when I worked as a copyeditor, the age range of people in that job ranged from people in their 20s to people in their 60s. The track out of being a copyeditor went through management, and the older ones had either no interest in that or no aptitude for it. So they stayed where they were, and were quite happy with it from what I could see. Granted, the senior ones earned more, but that's not really relevant to TNG-era culture

And your reply assumes that I was inferring Picard's issues with his pride would come from his relative status. I personally would just be embarassed that my career was standing still while hotshots all around me were shooting up through the ranks.

 

[AlanC9]

Sorry for misinterpreting your point, KG5; I assumed that you were making an argument rather than just an observation. If you were just saying that there probably aren't too many older lieutenants around, then sure, that's true. We knew that already, though, since we see very few of them in the series at other times.