Who is the better captain Picard or Jellico

Discussion in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation' started by Gabriel, Jan 9, 2019.

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Who is the better Captain

Poll closed Jan 27, 2019.
  1. Picard

    58.3%
  2. Jellico

    10.4%
  3. Both

    20.8%
  4. Neither

    10.4%
  1. Gabriel

    Gabriel Captain Red Shirt

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    I never stated it wasn’t the flagship of starfleet.
    Also I’m fine with the old ships looking the way they did back when they were new. The look good. I’m a firm believer in “if it ain’t broken, then don’t fix it”. Although the Miranda class did go through a refit that lighted up there nacelle. And there phasers beam looks more like them one that “modern” ships use. That’s good enough for me. The constitution refit was more of a rebuild. You don’t need a rebuild kind of refit all the time. Also refits don’t always change the outward appearance of a ship, in fiction and real life.
    And the producers were pretty stupid in not letting the enterprise fight in the dominion war during a movie. Would have been great to see them in wartime.
    Yes but it has a side effect of bridging the gap between the tos movie starfleet and the 24th century starfleet by using common ships. And plus since I love both kind of ships (23 and 24 century) I really don’t care if the budget caused them not be able to create new ships that may not be as Aesthetically pleasing as the old. ( (Steam runner not so pretty)
    On a unrelated note I hope one day someone makes detailed deck plans for the excelsior like they did for the Miranda, constitution, nx, defiant, bop, k’tinga, nova,akira, steamrunner, and sovereign. And there is a saber class deck plan created by a novice. (It’s not the same quality as the others)
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2019
  2. Farscape One

    Farscape One Commodore Commodore

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    One thing I have wondered is how long Jellico has been a captain. We know Picard was one for about 30 years before he took command of the Enterprise-D.

    Picard obviously has had a LOT of time to be familiar with that position and be the most effective at it.

    We don't know if Jellico has been a captain for a short time or for decades. I think that might play a factor in his style of command.
     
  3. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Once they could film Nebulae and Galaxies, the budgetary issue would go away. It was a choice to create new footage around an Excelsior in Paradise Lost when another model could be used . The argument is a red herring.
     
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  4. Makarov

    Makarov Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I wouldn't use Data as a reference for which of Jellico's orders are reasonable. The guy will push Crusher into the ocean and expected it to be funny, he has little grasp on the human crews reaction to the situation...
     
  5. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Are you sure Crusher wasn't the problem? Her bellyaching began when training with Picard, so in her case, Jellico was not the issue. (Same with Worf.)
     
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  6. Gabriel

    Gabriel Captain Red Shirt

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    But other than that he is a spot on Officer and will know if the order will endanger the crew. And he had no problems with jellico’s orders.
     
  7. Makarov

    Makarov Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    How reliable is Data really when it comes to the state of the crew though? He tells Jellico what is possible but it's questionable how much of a read he has on the crew's morale. Troi on the other hand was already concerned, and Geordi as well. And Geordi is usually the one who has to clue Data in on how to be more human..
     
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  8. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, he saw similarly pissy behavior in LCDR Chris Hobson that Riker et al displayed, and dealt with it appropriately.
     
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  9. Mojochi

    Mojochi Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I wouldn't use an instance of failing to understand juvenile humor as comparable to being clueless about what constitutes reasonable interaction with subordinates. Every instance of Data assuming command results in him performing exceptionally, & every putz who'd ever said he didn't have sufficient capacity to be in charge of, or responsible for lives was proven wrong, spectacularly.

    He's 3rd in command. Not a chump. His testimony is valid. Don't be Hobson, man. Don't be that guy. Besides, even I thought it was effing hilarious that he dumped Bev in the drink, & I bet you when she wasn't around... all of them privately chuckled about it too

    But if you disagree, consider the other factor in supporting the idea that so long as the captain is not endangering lives, he's in the right ordering things to be however he wants... that factor being, where's the negative impact? I don't remember hearing a single thing about any of the orders he gave backfiring, because he was wrong to order it

    All I remember is that everybody thought it sucked, & I'm sure it did, but who said preventing wars... or starting them, was gonna be a tiptoe through the tulips? Willy thinks everybody is wound tight enough that there's no JOY in anything?

    That's the gripe? He doesn't got you feeling enough joy? Awwwww :rolleyes: Wait til you're under fire, Bubba. I recall when your side piece got gobbled up by the Crystal Monster, you were all kinds of fire & brimstone. Hell, let a junior officer bring a suggestion to Picard without running it by you, & you rain down on them like Patton, even if that guy is... another YOU :guffaw:

    Jellico may suck to serve under that week, sure, but he's got pretty good reasons. It's a shit mission from top to bottom, but what's Riker's excuse for his ongoing superiority complex? Nobody polished his pips?
     
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  10. Gabriel

    Gabriel Captain Red Shirt

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    Totally agree. I wish I could explain it like that. I’m not very good with words
     
  11. Gabriel

    Gabriel Captain Red Shirt

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    Dang someone is anti android. He is a very capable officer. And you know what? Jellico gave lawful orders. And when a lawful is given its expected to be followed. Whether you like it or not. And data know that.
     
  12. Makarov

    Makarov Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It's not anti android to admit Data had issues relating to humans, that's the story. And it's not an issue of him being in command, because he's not in command here and not making the decisions. He just gave facts to Jellico and some are using him responding to his requests as evidence that his orders were reasonable, lmao.

    We don't even know Data's evaluation of the orders, only that they were technically possible.

    The negative impact would be a few weeks into the war when the crew finally has enough and mutinees his ass, or the engineering crew completely burns out and can't respond to a crisis in a critical event

    That or they actually run into a significant personnel problem which Jellico didn't want to hear about
     
  13. Gabriel

    Gabriel Captain Red Shirt

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    Why would the engineers burn out? Are they not smart enough to figure things out with on 2/3 of the crew. Also it probably is that during war crew are cross trained to help just in case of casualties.
    Data has a very fast brain. So I’m sure he can quickly figure out if the orders would hurt the enterprise. And I’m sure he would have advised the captain that they could endanger the enterprise. Riker and company are just pissed that that Riker wasn’t given command when picard left, and that they don’t like jellico commands style. And by the way if there was mutiny then the crew can kiss there careers goodbye because I doubt starfleet is going to let them mutiny and get away with it. If they do that then other crews will feel that they can mutiny if they don’t like their captain. If they want to they could relieve him of command but they would need very good reasons. Those reasons can not be that they just don’t like the captainor that he worked them too hard Also last time I checked it wasn’t all jellico fault. Riker was being arrogant by challenging jellico’s orders. Last time I checked Jelicoe was the captain of that ship and he can run that ship however he wants to. Starfleet try’s very hard not to put incompetent people in the captain seat. So if jellico wasn’t a good captain then there is no way they would give be him command of the flagship.
    As one person i this tread put it put it “All I remember is that everybody thought it sucked, & I'm sure it did, but who said preventing wars... or starting them, was gonna be a tiptoe through the tulips? Willy thinks everybody is wound tight enough that there's no JOY in anything?

    That's the gripe? He doesn't got you feeling enough joy? Awwwww :rolleyes: Wait til you're under fire, Bubba”.
    Courtesy of @mojuchi. This was crunch time. There is no time for hurt feelings. If Riker and company feel that they can’t do jellico orders because it’s too hard then they should get a reassigned to a cargo ship where they can have fun and all the joy they want without any pressure. Jellico is a good captain. He may not be a traditional friendly person last one I checked there your crew not your friends. Also the fact when he sucker up his pride and asked Rome to fly the mission that got picard freed when Geordi said he could do it says alot. That he is will to take a hit to his ego just to get he job done. Stop see Riker as the perfect officer. I like him but he is arrogant.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2019
  14. STR

    STR Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Excellent point. Jellico seemed like he'd spent a good stretch of time behind a desk before his promotion IMO. He was making rookie mistakes during his tenure on Enterprise.

    Maybe he went up through intelligence up through commander and switched to starship command when he was promoted to captain. Explains his tactical skills and poor decisions alike.
     
  15. Mojochi

    Mojochi Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    but that he also commands people, & has done so exceedingly well, goes to supporting the idea that he understands the demands of doing so, & is therefore a suitable testimonial as to the validity of it
    Of course we do. It's not like Jellico asked Data "Hey computer guy, are these crazy orders I shouldn't be giving technically possible?" What he did was tell his crew what needed to be done, & Data, of his own volition, chose to interject the point of view that it is within reason, if they make adjustments. That WAS his evaluation, & it was offered freely, not commanded from him
    Nobody knows that. That's guessing about the future. We don't know that (A) the crew were continuing to have difficulty, because once Riker is removed from the 1st officer post, nobody is heard giving any back talk about his orders anymore, including LaForge, who actually becomes a very integral part of his command team. Everything settles right down, because...

    (B) we don't know that Jellico would've continued being as demanding as he was during the changeover, once things were set the way he expected. He wanted the ship up to his specs, before the mission. It stands to reason that once they were reconfigured the way he wanted, there was no further need for him to press unpleasant or hurried changes. Once he's dealing with the Cardassians, he isn't making any more difficult demands of anyone. It's total conjecture to say that he was going to treat everyone the same as those 1st few changeover days, for the rest of his command.

    If anything, it might all have been on Riker's attitude. If the whole crew isn't back talking once Riker is gone, it's totally possible that it was his personal disgruntlement that corrupted everyone below him. By him making it clear he was against the captain, his subordinates felt more emboldened to buck the chain of command themselves because he was setting that poor example

    Negative impacts to his orders would be that his officers were saying things like "Well, this unexpected or bad thing happened because you ordered that thing that we advised you against. ", "We told him not to change that, & now this problem is causing a major issue because of it". Nobody ever says anything bad happens because of the things he ordered, beyond everybody's mood being a little surly. That means none of it was a cause for rebellion
     
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  16. Gabriel

    Gabriel Captain Red Shirt

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    Well someone’s critical. While his crew resources management meant needs work as well hospitality, his tactical skills seem pretty good. And by they way you can’t do that. You have to be at least an XO for a time before commanding a starship. Starfleet isn’t that stupid to do this “Maybe he went up through intelligence up through commander and switched to starship command when he was promoted to captain.” Chances are is that it took him a little longer to go up the chain of command. It seems picard had like 30 years of being a captain at the time of the episode. Maybe jellico only had 10 or twenty. I believe you are letting the fact he can be an ass a lot cloud your judgment. General George Patton was not exactly super friendly and could be an ass at times and yet he is one of the best generals of WWII.
     
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  17. Gabriel

    Gabriel Captain Red Shirt

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    Exactly. I mean it seems every one is freaking out over they have to do diff that they are unused to and forget that he is there captain and they are lawful orders. Now if they were unlawful and had a big chance to cause danger then you can be stronger in your opposition. You know you seem to have a lot of insight into command. Are experienced in this field or are you just very observation. With me I just read a lot about the navy, the military and non military organization to get a good picture of what command is supposed to look like. And while nobody wants an officer who blindly follows orders they want ones who will follow lawful orders wether or not the agree with them
     
  18. STR

    STR Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yes? It's a debate. You're going to have disagreement. It's kind of the point.

    Hospitality is for cruise ship captions. No, he had a problem with alienating his essential staff and causing undue disruption in the run-up to combat. Rookie mistake, but a potentially fatal one.

    Citation required.

    The hell they aren't. Not only does Starfleet regularly produce incompetent or insane captains, but they promote them into the admiralty so frequently it's a meme.

    "Being an ass" understates that man's sanctimony. Those shortcomings sent his career into the backwaters after V-E Day. But his issues weren't really issues of competence. Jellico's were. Don't miss that distinction.
     
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  19. Gabriel

    Gabriel Captain Red Shirt

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    Non needed all services (fictional and real) require that officer be an XO or have command experience before taking command. I’m in Stafford can be stupid but I don’t think they’re gonna be that stupid to give a ship to a commander with no experience. By the way you want to critical, fine. You misspelled captain. Jellico isn’t incompetent just because you don’t like him. And by the way did you ever think that his orders were to see how the crew could perform under pressures for himself and not just reports. And he would have to “alienate” his senior staff if Riker wasn’t being an ass too by Openly questioning his orders. Riker was an ass for the entire episode. Right when the admiral refuse to give him command of the enterprise. Which a lot of people on this thread would agree that it is wrong.
    And you’re forgetting one thing Jellico was in command and staff could hate him but they still have to follow his orders unless they unlawful. And I do not find them unlawful. Though I am sure you will find ways to prove that they are. Well you know what that’s your opinion if you don’t find jellico a decent captain. I mean I like picard but I also like Jelico. Also by the way hospitality is also a part of diplomacy. I’m sorry I should’ve said that his diplomatic skills probably could use some work. But you know in the end whether we like it or not his plan saved picard ass. And if he was the bad Captain you think he is would’ve just let picard die so that he could have a chance to stay permanent command of the enterprise.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2019
  20. Makarov

    Makarov Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I'm not sure Riker is that influential in the episode. First Troi warns Jellico about the crew being unsure of him. Then Geordi himself complains to Riker first about the orders and lack of time to complete them. Presumably the crew are complaining all over the place and Riker's had to hear it since the shift rotations. And he's stuck between them and a captain who does not listen to him. So in addition to losing Picard he's also going to lose all respect of his crewmembers by becoming a Jellico style first officer and enforcing his changes
     
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