Who is the better captain Picard or Jellico

Dang someone is anti android. He is a very capable officer. And you know what? Jellico gave lawful orders. And when a lawful is given its expected to be followed. Whether you like it or not. And data know that.

 

It's not anti android to admit Data had issues relating to humans, that's the story. And it's not an issue of him being in command, because he's not in command here and not making the decisions. He just gave facts to Jellico and some are using him responding to his requests as evidence that his orders were reasonable, lmao.

We don't even know Data's evaluation of the orders, only that they were technically possible.

The negative impact would be a few weeks into the war when the crew finally has enough and mutinees his ass, or the engineering crew completely burns out and can't respond to a crisis in a critical event

That or they actually run into a significant personnel problem which Jellico didn't want to hear about

 

Why would the engineers burn out? Are they not smart enough to figure things out with on 2/3 of the crew. Also it probably is that during war crew are cross trained to help just in case of casualties.
Data has a very fast brain. So I’m sure he can quickly figure out if the orders would hurt the enterprise. And I’m sure he would have advised the captain that they could endanger the enterprise. Riker and company are just pissed that that Riker wasn’t given command when picard left, and that they don’t like jellico commands style. And by the way if there was mutiny then the crew can kiss there careers goodbye because I doubt starfleet is going to let them mutiny and get away with it. If they do that then other crews will feel that they can mutiny if they don’t like their captain. If they want to they could relieve him of command but they would need very good reasons. Those reasons can not be that they just don’t like the captainor that he worked them too hard Also last time I checked it wasn’t all jellico fault. Riker was being arrogant by challenging jellico’s orders. Last time I checked Jelicoe was the captain of that ship and he can run that ship however he wants to. Starfleet try’s very hard not to put incompetent people in the captain seat. So if jellico wasn’t a good captain then there is no way they would give be him command of the flagship.
As one person i this tread put it put it “All I remember is that everybody thought it sucked, & I'm sure it did, but who said preventing wars... or starting them, was gonna be a tiptoe through the tulips? Willy thinks everybody is wound tight enough that there's no JOY in anything?

That's the gripe? He doesn't got you feeling enough joy? Awwwww Wait til you're under fire, Bubba”.
Courtesy of @mojuchi. This was crunch time. There is no time for hurt feelings. If Riker and company feel that they can’t do jellico orders because it’s too hard then they should get a reassigned to a cargo ship where they can have fun and all the joy they want without any pressure. Jellico is a good captain. He may not be a traditional friendly person last one I checked there your crew not your friends. Also the fact when he sucker up his pride and asked Rome to fly the mission that got picard freed when Geordi said he could do it says alot. That he is will to take a hit to his ego just to get he job done. Stop see Riker as the perfect officer. I like him but he is arrogant.

 

Excellent point. Jellico seemed like he'd spent a good stretch of time behind a desk before his promotion IMO. He was making rookie mistakes during his tenure on Enterprise.

Maybe he went up through intelligence up through commander and switched to starship command when he was promoted to captain. Explains his tactical skills and poor decisions alike.

 

but that he also commands people, & has done so exceedingly well, goes to supporting the idea that he understands the demands of doing so, & is therefore a suitable testimonial as to the validity of it

Of course we do. It's not like Jellico asked Data "Hey computer guy, are these crazy orders I shouldn't be giving technically possible?" What he did was tell his crew what needed to be done, & Data, of his own volition, chose to interject the point of view that it is within reason, if they make adjustments. That WAS his evaluation, & it was offered freely, not commanded from him

Nobody knows that. That's guessing about the future. We don't know that (A) the crew were continuing to have difficulty, because once Riker is removed from the 1st officer post, nobody is heard giving any back talk about his orders anymore, including LaForge, who actually becomes a very integral part of his command team. Everything settles right down, because...

(B) we don't know that Jellico would've continued being as demanding as he was during the changeover, once things were set the way he expected. He wanted the ship up to his specs, before the mission. It stands to reason that once they were reconfigured the way he wanted, there was no further need for him to press unpleasant or hurried changes. Once he's dealing with the Cardassians, he isn't making any more difficult demands of anyone. It's total conjecture to say that he was going to treat everyone the same as those 1st few changeover days, for the rest of his command.

If anything, it might all have been on Riker's attitude. If the whole crew isn't back talking once Riker is gone, it's totally possible that it was his personal disgruntlement that corrupted everyone below him. By him making it clear he was against the captain, his subordinates felt more emboldened to buck the chain of command themselves because he was setting that poor example

Negative impacts to his orders would be that his officers were saying things like "Well, this unexpected or bad thing happened because you ordered that thing that we advised you against. ", "We told him not to change that, & now this problem is causing a major issue because of it". Nobody ever says anything bad happens because of the things he ordered, beyond everybody's mood being a little surly. That means none of it was a cause for rebellion

 

Well someone’s critical. While his crew resources management meant needs work as well hospitality, his tactical skills seem pretty good. And by they way you can’t do that. You have to be at least an XO for a time before commanding a starship. Starfleet isn’t that stupid to do this “Maybe he went up through intelligence up through commander and switched to starship command when he was promoted to captain.” Chances are is that it took him a little longer to go up the chain of command. It seems picard had like 30 years of being a captain at the time of the episode. Maybe jellico only had 10 or twenty. I believe you are letting the fact he can be an ass a lot cloud your judgment. General George Patton was not exactly super friendly and could be an ass at times and yet he is one of the best generals of WWII.

 

Exactly. I mean it seems every one is freaking out over they have to do diff that they are unused to and forget that he is there captain and they are lawful orders. Now if they were unlawful and had a big chance to cause danger then you can be stronger in your opposition. You know you seem to have a lot of insight into command. Are experienced in this field or are you just very observation. With me I just read a lot about the navy, the military and non military organization to get a good picture of what command is supposed to look like. And while nobody wants an officer who blindly follows orders they want ones who will follow lawful orders wether or not the agree with them

 

Yes? It's a debate. You're going to have disagreement. It's kind of the point.

Hospitality is for cruise ship captions. No, he had a problem with alienating his essential staff and causing undue disruption in the run-up to combat. Rookie mistake, but a potentially fatal one.

Citation required.

The hell they aren't. Not only does Starfleet regularly produce incompetent or insane captains, but they promote them into the admiralty so frequently it's a meme.

"Being an ass" understates that man's sanctimony. Those shortcomings sent his career into the backwaters after V-E Day. But his issues weren't really issues of competence. Jellico's were. Don't miss that distinction.

 

Non needed all services (fictional and real) require that officer be an XO or have command experience before taking command. I’m in Stafford can be stupid but I don’t think they’re gonna be that stupid to give a ship to a commander with no experience. By the way you want to critical, fine. You misspelled captain. Jellico isn’t incompetent just because you don’t like him. And by the way did you ever think that his orders were to see how the crew could perform under pressures for himself and not just reports. And he would have to “alienate” his senior staff if Riker wasn’t being an ass too by Openly questioning his orders. Riker was an ass for the entire episode. Right when the admiral refuse to give him command of the enterprise. Which a lot of people on this thread would agree that it is wrong.
And you’re forgetting one thing Jellico was in command and staff could hate him but they still have to follow his orders unless they unlawful. And I do not find them unlawful. Though I am sure you will find ways to prove that they are. Well you know what that’s your opinion if you don’t find jellico a decent captain. I mean I like picard but I also like Jelico. Also by the way hospitality is also a part of diplomacy. I’m sorry I should’ve said that his diplomatic skills probably could use some work. But you know in the end whether we like it or not his plan saved picard ass. And if he was the bad Captain you think he is would’ve just let picard die so that he could have a chance to stay permanent command of the enterprise.

 

I'm not sure Riker is that influential in the episode. First Troi warns Jellico about the crew being unsure of him. Then Geordi himself complains to Riker first about the orders and lack of time to complete them. Presumably the crew are complaining all over the place and Riker's had to hear it since the shift rotations. And he's stuck between them and a captain who does not listen to him. So in addition to losing Picard he's also going to lose all respect of his crewmembers by becoming a Jellico style first officer and enforcing his changes

 

I vaguely remember Jellico's plan to get an edge on the Cardassian's was a game of high stakes chicken and bluffing.

Not the most stable plan. Then again, neither was sending a middle aged man on a Mission Impossible style mission with only one medic and one armed escort.

The Feddies beat the Cardies before. In an unseen war which Picard, Maxwell and O'Brien served in.
The Klingons beat the Cardies into submission, while also running attacks against the Feddies in season 4 of DS9.
Hell, didn't a bunch of Federation rebels (the Maqui) also put the Cardies on the run?

TL;DR
The Cardassians are only a threat to the weaponless Bajorans.
That being said, why did Jellico need to command the Enterprise?

 

Who Knows maybe Nechayev didn’t trust Riker or thinks he’s just not good enough

 

Last time I checked Jellico was in command not Riker. Also as executive officer Riker has execute his commands and advise the captain. Now the captain did not want his advice and technically he doesn’t need to consult him because he’s in command. Now while that does not work out in the long run this was crunch time. Riker and company should’ve just sucked it up and get the job done instead of complaining. Jericho was really so bad they should just contact at Starfleet. Or file the orders under protest and noted in their log. Not Openly show disgust of your commanding officer.
I wonder how the crew would’ve reacted if Picard had issued these orders. ( don’t tell me that he wouldn’t I know he wouldn’t. That’s not really his style) they probably would’ve followed the orders.

 

Or, to put it simply, "I appreciate hearing your concerns, and I'll bring what I can to the captain, but these are his orders." All part of being Number One.

 

It's his job to enforce changes. How he goes about doing that will determine how every other officer under him might behave in response. If Riker is a dissident, then it sets the precedent that it's acceptable for the rest of the crew to be so. If he stands there & tells Geordi that the captain is not going to listen to him, without knowing why the captain isn't taking any of his suggestions, it undermines the captain's authority, suggesting that he is a tyrant, when no one, Riker included, knows that to be factually accurate. There are other possibilities, which Jellico hasn't explained, & being that he's the captain, responsible for the oversight of the mission he's been better briefed on than any of them, he needn't have to

My point was that once Riker is gone, there are no more dissidents. You don't hear the new 1st officer telling Jellico about any crew issues. That supports the notion that they weren't as big a hardship or bad judgement call as Riker painted them, which tends to suggest that his own attitudes might've shaped the crew's morale just about it just as much as any hardship Jellico laid on them

Who's to say it's undue? Do we normally see a captain ripped from his command & some other one spontaneously dropped in there, on the brink of a military conflict? It's just as likely that the "disruption" was ultimately unavoidable given the circumstance.

If there's a failure in why this changeover doesn't go swimmingly for the people it effects, it is far more likely to be a symptom of the actions of high command, making the call to do this in the first place, & Jellico is just as much a victim trying to make due with what he's been dealt, in order to achieve what he's been tasked with, as any of his subordinates.

That Jellico doesn't engage in dialog about what his reasons are, for his orders, doesn't make them deliberately alienating or unduly disruptive in themselves, if he is in some way justified, beyond their capacity to know it, & the privilege of rank is that he doesn't need to justify them.

Rank is maybe the only thing he's got going for him in this entire ordeal, as a way to get the job done. No one wanted Picard to be reassigned. So Jellico's default state is "The guy no one wants". If the mission is critical & time sensitive, that puts him in the hole from the get go, & rank is all he has at his disposal to give him an advantage for mission success with a bunch of reluctant strangers

The man is clearly not a rookie. He's probably a Cardassian War veteran commander, to know so much about how to deal with them. You don't learn how to deal with an ex-enemy as well as he does without being out there doing exactly that in many encounters

 

This Jellico obsession is just bizarre. He was an one-off character and before and after this episode a commander of an insignificant ship. Will we next have a ten page thread where people argue whether Captain Ramart was a better captain than Kirk?

And Jellico's leadership style is pretty questionable. In my experience people who do not listen the opinions of experts working for them and instead want to micromanage everything make poor leaders.

 

Dang. You know I would tell you my opinion of Jellico but I know you would find it a waste of time so i won’t waste my time. And you know what we can have a “obsession” all we want here, since this thread is about that basically. And your ramart remark is foolish because nobody would talk in detail about a character seen in only one scene. However, it is fine to talk about a character feature in two episodes and several non- cannon books also it is not about if jellico is a better captain that picard anymore. It is more of if he was good captain.

 

What do you think about people who are predisposed to dislike new managers?

 

Almost as bizarre as entering a thread just to tell the people interested in discussing the subject that you find the subject bizarre?

 

It's a great episode and controversial so it's natural to have lengthy topics I think. It's up there with Tuvix and Picard's decision to let Hugh go free.

Geordi is the one complaining in the scene with Riker though. Riker was just honest with Geordi there, it's a fact that Jellico wouldn't listen to any complaints about the crew roster changes from Riker, he already tried. Him and Geordi aren't really even that rebellious there, they are simply reacting to the situation honestly with each other.

After Riker's gone the episode is nearly complete there's not really time for it. I doubt Geordi and Troi's issues went away, they and the rest of the crew probably had even less confidence in him after hearing he flipped out on Riker. The impact of the orders and whether or not it was worth the effort is kind of unknown.

They were all miserable but going along with Jellico's orders reasonably well until Riker thought he was giving up on Picard and that's the only real time someone stands up to him.