Who is the better captain Picard or Jellico

Discussion in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation' started by Gabriel, Jan 9, 2019.

?

Who is the better Captain

Poll closed Jan 27, 2019.
  1. Picard

    58.3%
  2. Jellico

    10.4%
  3. Both

    20.8%
  4. Neither

    10.4%
  1. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

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    Jellico's name has always made me think of Jell-O.

    So I vote for Picard.

    Kor
     
  2. Gabriel

    Gabriel Captain Red Shirt

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    Really jell-o. No offense but seems kind of petty.
     
  3. Gabriel

    Gabriel Captain Red Shirt

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    I don’t think picard would say that. He thinks I’m self as an explorer. As said in nemesis. Now Jellico I doubt he would deny the fact that he’s a warrior.
     
  4. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

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    It drives me batty.

    Kor
     
  5. Arpy

    Arpy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    And yet he’s captain of the flagship in war whereas Jellico’s maybe hauling cargo around in an Excelsior most of the time. It doesn’t matter what you see y but what you can do. Picard can do more. The one time we saw Jellico he did just well enough but left serious questions behind. Picard I imagine would save the day too with little else in his wake to doubt.
     
  6. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I don't remember the Enterprise fighting the Dominion.
     
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  7. Gabriel

    Gabriel Captain Red Shirt

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    I seriously doubt excelsior are hauling around cargo during war. And even if they were they probably would’ve transferred Jellico to a better ship. And I say saving picards ass with his plan is more than just doing well enough. And the fact that he had to suck up his pride and ask Riker to fly the mission says something about him. Also there is no evidence that the enterprise E ( which is I think what you’re referring to as the flagship during war since the enterprise was never really in any wars) was involved serious in the war. Wow I personally would like to believe that Canon does not say otherwise. It seems like enterprise E was doing what Picard could do best, diplomacy. In insurrection starfleet was having them do diplomatic missions to put out brush fires somewhere during 2375 instead of fighting. We know insurrection takes place before the end of the S9 because they mention they need to get worf back to to ds9 and The end of DS9 worf leaves DS9 for good. It makes sense you want to ship it looks nice and clean during negotiations that way you don’t seem weak. Because if Starfleet sense a battered ship that kind of shows there really are scraping the barrel. Also we saw on DS9 excelsiors fighting.
     
  8. Arpy

    Arpy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Wishful thinking.
     
  9. Arpy

    Arpy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Point is, he’s not on a Nebula or Ambassador or a lot of other ships.

    As opposed to what — not?

    Again, as opposed to what? And further, he wouldn’t have had to if he didn’t create the situation he found himself in in the first place. He’s not incompetent, but he leaves a lot to be desired.

    It’s a Galaxy Class starship and the Federation flagship. It’s also the command ship in the sector if there’s a Cardassian invasion of Minos Korva.

    The Dominion was the brushfire. INS was more lighthearted. Next in NEM, Janeway teases Picard about all the easy assignments he gets, dealing with the Borg, the Sona, now peace with the Romulans, and he replies he’s just lucky. {Play canned laughter.} In reality he should be scarred from the first two and the third one could be one of the biggest things in their history.

    Also, he’s sent because his was the closest ship, not because it was Picard, and when he’s told about it, he asks if he’s going with or without the rest of the fleet — presumably in command of, as he’s done in FC and “Redemption,” not to mention the Lit.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2019
  10. Gabriel

    Gabriel Captain Red Shirt

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    Wow dissing the excelsior class. Although I didn’t see very many of nebulas or ambassador in the dominion more either. Excelsior classes are usually flag ship of a admiral so i’m sure they are still important starship that fights pretty well. And by the way on DS9 the Cairo went missing but he was no longer the captain a Leslie Wong was. For all we know he was given command of a nebula, ambassador class, or even a galaxy.
    They both started the situation. If Riker and company had of been so arrogant to challenge him in him public then he wouldn’t have to be an ass. Also Geordie said he could do it so technically he didn’t have to suck up his pride and ask Riker. Also he didn’t have to rescue picard, because Starfleet did not tell him he had to rescue him. He could’ve done nothing and I don’t think Starfleet would have charged him with anything. And another thing I’m not sure every captain in starfleet would be able to come up with a plan that deals with the cardassian and gives them enough leverage to release picard.
    but the enterprise D was never in any war. Also there is no edvidence that enterprise E was in any serious fighting. There is no evidence picard has ever fought in big battles in a war period. Also. While he was the closest ship I doubt if it were jellico commanding the ship they would have sent the enterprise. Because it requires a diplomatic touch picard has not a warrior like jellico. While I’m not saying he isn’t a warrior of sorts, he is an diplomat and explorer first and prominently. Another thing about Jellico. If he wasn’t such a Good captain then their is no reason starfleet would give him comand of the enterprise when I’m sure there were others to pick from. And before you say the put him in command for the negotiations, he didn’t have to be in command. They could have brought him along to be in the negotiations and have someone else command enterprise, if they thought he wasn’t good enough to command the enterprise. Im beginning to believe you would like us all to believe he wasn’t a good captain just because he got on peoples nerves and didn’t like taking no for an answer. Starships are not commanded by a group of people it’s commaded by one. Riker forgot that he is just the executive officer he is to execute the commands of the commanding officer and to offer alternatives. Not question orders after the CO has already made a decision. Now if his commands have been threatening to the ship then they would have grounds to disobey them, but since data (who of course has no feelings, and such has no arrogance or question orders just because he doesn’t like them, well except for one time I can remember and even then he had a good reason) did not seem to question jellico orders at any time during the episode, jellico was not threatening the ship. He can run the ship however he wants as long as it’s by the book. While it is important that the crew respects their captain, but you have to remember this was crunch time. Crunch time we don’t really have times for the pleasantries. I’m not saying he’s better than Picard but he is definitely not worse. They’re just better in different fields. Also dominion was not the brushfire. That was some dispute I think it was some border dispute that. The dominion is the reason why picard had to put out the brushfire Because they were tying up the diplomatic corps.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2019
  11. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Actually, Riker had a headstart. His pissy attitude began with Nechayev, before meeting Jellico.
     
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  12. Makarov

    Makarov Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The other Jellico thread has like 50+ pages of some good debate on it. For me it's telling that one of the few things Picard says to his fellow captain is that he's wrong about Riker. Only a short time together and he already noticed Jellico making the wrong judgements about the crew.

    And then there's this:
    Now that's coming from Geordi who we know from that episode with Scotty he does not overestimate the amount of time something will take to get done.
     
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  13. Gabriel

    Gabriel Captain Red Shirt

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    Totally agree
     
  14. Anthony Dawson

    Anthony Dawson Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Picking up a few earlier posts, I think if a manager is brought in to avert or alleviate an imminent catastrophe it could be quite reasonable for him or her to come in hard and lay down the law, particularly if the problem has been caused in some way by a previous weak leadership where staff aren't immediately self motivating.

    However, I don't believe that's the case here. Picard seems to run a tight enough ship and I think Starfleet would have intervened if he'd displayed a "laissez-faire" attitude leading to his senior staff not performing their duties.

    Moreover, as Makarov and others have pointed out with quotes from Geordie and Riker, Jellico's demands appear unreasonable and cause unnecessary stress in a situation difficult enough to start with.

    I take the point that Riker verges on insubordination, but, while I know little about military codes, isn't it part of an XO's role to make it clear if he thinks the captain is making a mistake? Short of disobeying a direct order, anyway.
    Riker has done that for Picard with no ill feelings, it's Jellico's attitude that leads two of them to be antagonistic.

    As a final point, the question here is "Who is the better Captain"?
    In that context it's probably worth remembering Starfleet's core principles are carrying out peaceful exploration and forming diplomatic alliances, not military conquest, as regrettably inevitable as that may sometimes be.
    By those rules, Picard just is objectively the answer.
     
  15. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I just feel this is a classic case of someone who's not necessarily a people person (we don't have sufficient time to find out), not only put in charge of managing an entirely different group of people, but put in that position in the midst of a crisis. I don't think he felt he had the time to get to know people, and clearly didn't seem inclined to do so (I imagine he was hoping this would be a very short-term mission in any case, so why bother?).

    I feel the blame goes both ways, in that yes, Jellico was a hard-ass who wasn't there to make friends and such, but our heroes are supposed to be the best in the fleet or what-not, and part of that should entail being able to adapt to change.

    Did Riker at any point bring Geordi's concerns about simply not having enough time for the requested changes to Jellico, and without giving him attitude about it? The incident which most stands out in my mind is the whole thing involving going from three to four shifts, which was amounted to Riker essentially ignoring an order.
     
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  16. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    So, because it appeared to Starfleet that the Cardassians were angling for a military aggression, Picard is the better captain? I'm not sure how that logic works.
     
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  17. Anthony Dawson

    Anthony Dawson Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    No, fair point.
    As I said, sometimes military action is inevitable and in dealing with a race like the Cardassians, diplomacy is rarely going to work as they won't respect it. In that case Picard's skill set probably wouldn't be appropriate and a much more aggressive response would be. It's like the expression "only Nixon could go to China".

    However, I stand by the idea that in a straight binary choice, with no caveats or other information, Picard is the "better" captain for the ongoing Federation mission. But it's just as well he's not the only sort of captain available.
     
  18. JesterFace

    JesterFace Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Can we agree that it was kind of silly that the only Federation officer that could go undercover on this mission was Picard, no one else.
    No one else had experience with theta-band carrier waves.
    No one was better trained for a mission like this.
    It had to be Picard.

    So, Picard went on a mission and to replace him arrives Jellico. Someone who creates friction between everyone. Drama.
    It felt somewhat forced.
     
  19. Gabriel

    Gabriel Captain Red Shirt

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    Not in public. Riker let should have done it in private. An XO role is to excute the orders of the Captain and suggests alternative s. Not openly question his orders unless they are threatening the ship, which they didn’t or I think data would have said something. In which case they should believe him because since he has no feelings he would be doing it for the safety of the ship not just because he thinks they are stupid.
    I’m sure Riker didn’t meant to openly question jellico but that what he did. Also Riker could have followed the users under protest and note it in his log and starfleet figure it out later. Unless of course he can prove that the orders would be dangerous to the ship and crew.
     
  20. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Riker had intended to do just that about the shift changes, the first hint of trouble with Jellico is that he wasn't interested in a private discussion on the matter, but was content to bark "get it done", ignoring the fact that Riker had issues he wished to raise for Jellico's consideration. After all, it's not as if waiting until the next day would have left the shift unmanned or anything so it's far less dangerous to the ship that half-finished upgrades to the back-up systems because LaForge didn't have the manpower due to personnel transfers (both directly Jellico's orders).
     
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