When the Grammar Nazi's strike!

[scotpens]

I like “moreso.”

It looks wrong to me. So does “nevermind.”

And when did we start using obsess intransitively (as in “to obsess about” or “obsess over” something)? Until about 25 years ago, obsess was used only in its transitive or participle form. You could be “obsessed with” something, or you could be “obsessed by” something, or something could obsess you. But people didn’t “obsess.”

 

[RoJoHen]

I don't have any problem with it. That's just the natural evolution of language. Which was the probably-too-subtle point of my last Post.

Nah, I got it. The problem is that we're existing in this goofy internet era where people are typing and texting a helluva lot more than they used to, so shortcuts are bound to arise and take over. "Nevertheless" and "moreso" are good examples, however spellcheck still thinks "moreso" is wrong.

 

[RoJoHen]

I like “moreso.”

It looks wrong to me. So does “nevermind.”

And when did we start using obsess intransitively (as in “to obsess about” or “obsess over” something)?

When it started to make sense.

I was only a newborn baby 25 years ago, so I can't really speak to this change.

 

[scotpens]

. . . The problem is that we're existing in this goofy internet era where people are typing and texting a helluva lot more than they used to, so shortcuts are bound to arise and take over. “Nevertheless” and “moreso” are good examples, however spellcheck still thinks “moreso” is wrong.

“Nevertheless” has been written as one word since the early 14th century. Interestingly, “neverthelater” was used in Middle English, but hasn’t survived into modern times.

As for “nevermind,” I suppose we have Kurt Cobain to thank for that one.

 

[RoJoHen]

. . . The problem is that we're existing in this goofy internet era where people are typing and texting a helluva lot more than they used to, so shortcuts are bound to arise and take over. “Nevertheless” and “moreso” are good examples, however spellcheck still thinks “moreso” is wrong.

“Nevertheless” has been written as one word since the early 14th century. As for “nevermind,” I suppose we have Kurt Cobain to thank for that one.

And I'm sure in the 14th Century somebody was bitching about how "nevertheless" should still be 3 words, but the masses won out, and now it's one word, and we're all okay with it.

Keeping "never mind" two words accomplishes nothing, as it means exactly the same thing as making it one word.

 

[marillion]

Sorry to bump this up after so long, but I came across this article today regarding the whole single-space, double-space issue that always seems to get people's shorts in a twist..

Space Invaders

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I use two spaces. I don't argue that it is unarguably right, but I do argue that it is something that comes down to personal preference. While modern computer word processing has removed the need to use two spaces after a period, it still can allow for greater readability and distinction between sentences and it causes no harm.

I type with two spaces after sentences because it is what I am habitually trained to do. While I suggest that newcomers learn to type with one space, it would actually take up more of my time and effort to type with space because I would have to go back and delete the second space. It would also lead to greater inconsistency in case I miss one.

*This post was written with two spaces after a period, which the board converted into a single space.

 

[scotpens]

^^ For those who won't bother reading the entire article:

The problem with typewriters was that they used monospaced type—that is, every character occupied an equal amount of horizontal space. This bucked a long tradition of proportional typesetting, in which skinny characters (like I or 1) were given less space than fat ones (like W or M). Monospaced type gives you text that looks "loose" and uneven; there's a lot of white space between characters and words, so it's more difficult to spot the spaces between sentences immediately. Hence the adoption of the two-space rule — on a typewriter, an extra space after a sentence makes text easier to read. Here's the thing, though: Monospaced fonts went out in the 1970s. First electric typewriters and then computers began to offer people ways to create text using proportional fonts. Today nearly every font on your PC is proportional. (Courier is the one major exception.) Because we've all switched to modern fonts, adding two spaces after a period no longer enhances readability, typographers say. It diminishes it.

That's it in a nutshell. Using two spaces between sentences is simply obsolete.

BTW, there's one exception to proportional spacing: In most text fonts, the numeral 1 is given the same width as the numerals 2 through 9 and the zero. Traditionally, they're all one en (the width of a capital N). This puts extra white space before and after the 1, but it's done for regularity in typesetting columns of figures.

I type with two spaces after sentences because it is what I am habitually trained to do. While I suggest that newcomers learn to type with one space, it would actually take up more of my time and effort to type with space because I would have to go back and delete the second space.

I, too, grew up in the typewriter age, and was taught to put two spaces after a sentence. But I found that habit quite easy to unlearn, mainly because I'm a professional typesetter and I always hated typewriters anyway. I hope I never even have to look at one of those clunky old machines again.

 

[marillion]

^^ Exactly.. A friend of mine in another office sends me documents to proof read, since I'm more of a writer than she is.. Constantly chaps her hide that I insist on track-changing all her double spaces... But she's "old school" when it comes to having learned to type on an old IBM Selectric..

 

[scotpens]

... But she's "old school" when it comes to having learned to type on an old IBM Selectric..

Hell, when I first used an IBM Selectric, it was high-tech! I learned to type on a Royal manual -- just like the ones you see secretaries and newspaper reporters using in old movies.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I technically learned on a PC (albeit, a pre-1990s computer), but I was taught by my parents who used typewriters. I don't see what the big deal is. Both sides have to admit it's arbitrary either way and I'm willing to be that most wouldn't even notice it unless they were looking for it. I won't tell people two spaces is correct, because I know it isn't, but I'm also not changing the way I type.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I first started off on an old manual typewriter. We didn't have enter or return keys back then! You got to the end of a line and then reached up to hit a lever on the machine to start the next one.

But oddly enough, I always formatted my pages (outside of school papers and official documents) as if they were printed pages on a paperback novel--single spaced. I still do that today, so it always looked kind of funny to me whenever I went double-space.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Proportional fonts may have made the double space obsolete, but I personally still think it looks better to have more space between sentences than words.

 

[bluedana]

Well, soon enough, I and my entire generation will be dead, everyone left will have only known PCs and proportional font, and you won't have to worry about it anymore.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I technically learned on a PC (albeit, a pre-1990s computer), but I was taught by my parents who used typewriters. I don't see what the big deal is. Both sides have to admit it's arbitrary either way and I'm willing to be that most wouldn't even notice it unless they were looking for it. I won't tell people two spaces is correct, because I know it isn't, but I'm also not changing the way I type.

Me neither. I think 2 spaces looks a LOT better, by far. I think what's causing the 2-space rule to go out the window isn't anything to do with typography--it's to do with HTML, and how the Internet was set up. For instance, every post I type has 2 spaces between each sentence, but when I go to post it, the computer deletes all the second spaces. Whoever set up the protocols for how text appears on the Internet enforced a new rule on everyone (which I find very disagreeable, for said person to force their opinion in that way).

 

[scotpens]

I think what's causing the 2-space rule to go out the window isn't anything to do with typography -- it's to do with HTML, and how the Internet was set up. For instance, every post I type has 2 spaces between each sentence, but when I go to post it, the computer deletes all the second spaces. Whoever set up the protocols for how text appears on the Internet enforced a new rule on everyone (which I find very disagreeable, for said person to force their opinion in that way).

You’re putting the cart before the horse. HTML deletes extra spaces because they don’t exist, and never existed, in printed matter going back to the days of Gutenberg. The need to double-space after a period was purely an artifact of the typewriter age. Today’s word processing looks and feels like traditional typesetting; the only resemblance to a typewriter is the retention of the QWERTY keyboard layout. And any old-time Linotype operator will tell you to hit the spacebar once at the end of a sentence.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Well, soon enough, I and my entire generation will be dead, everyone left will have only known PCs and proportional font, and you won't have to worry about it anymore.

I expect all sentences on my tombstone double spaced however. It will be my final twitter, in granite for posterity.

 

[Gepard]

Proportional fonts may have made the double space obsolete, but I personally still think it looks better to have more space between sentences than words.

I kind of agree with this, despite never using a typewriter ever. But I've discovered that browsers -- at least, Firefox on my Mac seems to -- will auto-correct two spaces down to one, making the issue moot. I can't seem to reproduce that on this Windows box, though.

(Typed with double spaces between sentences.)

ETA: wait, no. It's been collapsed to one space once I posted it. Maybe it's the board software?

 

[RJDiogenes]

Yeah, it's the board software. A lot of formatting will not be reflected in the final post, but will still show up in the edit box-- multiple spaces, indents, whatever. I wish there was a way to override it.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

You’re putting the cart before the horse. HTML deletes extra spaces because they don’t exist, and never existed, in printed matter going back to the days of Gutenberg.

Well, that's just sophistry. The two spaces existed because I typed them. The board is the one changing things for those who type the way they do. It doesn't enforce capitalization at the beginning of sentences, why does it change how many spaces you make after a period?