When did the Janeway hatred truly start to coalesce?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Ragitsu, Nov 17, 2021.

  1. Holly-deck One

    Holly-deck One Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2017
    Location:
    Farscape One
    Not only was there no law establishing Riker killing his clone being illegal, but his and Pulaski's dna was stolen from them. They were assaulted with a weapon and subjected to a procedure they said no to earlier in the episode.

    It would be like telling a woman who was raped and was pregnant due to that rape that she had no choice but to carry that baby to term. It's her body, her choice. Same applies to Riker and Pulaski's clone situation.
     
    jackoverfull, DonIago and Ragitsu like this.
  2. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2021
    Man, this thread is like a mobius strip when it comes to a certain controversial topic.
     
  3. Crazy 4 XmasLights

    Crazy 4 XmasLights Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2020
    Must respectfully disagree. The rape victim has to carry the rapist's child, feel it growing inside her, nourish it with her body, and bring it agonizingly into the world. Riker and Pulaski only had to walk away. Completely different level of violation.

    And in any case, I think they punished the society adequately, by effectively condemning it to oblivion. Not unlike hunting down and killing your rapist.
     
    jackoverfull likes this.
  4. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2021
    Their genetic material? Their rights.
     
    Holly-deck One likes this.
  5. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    Foreign soil.

    A post warp human colony with a unique legal code that Riker had not read.

    The non interference directive totally applied.

    Riker killed two babies.

    It probably took a lot of restraint not to lock Riker in a box and throw him in the ocean.

    Further more the clones are not going to accept those breeding quintupletes Picard set up. They must have been conditioned to be asexual since even unrelated 40th generation clones boning each other are going to produce variations on Sloth from Goonies.

    So despite all that fresh meat, they want nothing to do with the vagina business, when what's really happened is that Picard has supplied them with a hundred tons of vital genetic material to continue their clonetropolis.
     
    Crazy 4 XmasLights likes this.
  6. Crazy 4 XmasLights

    Crazy 4 XmasLights Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2020
    Granted. But consider this: I have male parts, so I can never get pregnant. And, never having been to prison, I have not experienced rape, either. So I can only speculate, but I really do think that being impregnated by a rapist would be a greater violation than merely having a few of my gut cells harvested to make clone offspring I'll never see.

    Figure the average Bringloidi weighs 100 pounds, allowing for children. And, there are 220 of them. So, eleven tons, not a hundred. But, since I doubt our cloning pals could stop the Bringloidi from doing the horizontal mambo among themselves, they might ultimately have far more worthy templates.
     
    jackoverfull likes this.
  7. Holly-deck One

    Holly-deck One Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2017
    Location:
    Farscape One
    I'll agree that it's a different level of violation, but a violation is still a violation, especially after they said no. There's a pesky thing called consent that's key to so many things.

    You're basically saying it's okay for anyone to take samples of you whenever they want, to do with whatever they want. That's a bad Pandora's Box.
     
    Ragitsu likes this.
  8. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2020
    Location:
    Italy
    that doesn’t applies to humans.

    one of the issues pertained the cloning process itself. Sure, they could go on decades by cloning the newcomers, but if they want to pass on their genes they have to do it the old fashioned way now.
     
  9. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    I imagined since the 80s that the planet was containing billions of clones. But given the distribution of the family units, it was closer to 500. Unless only 500 clones where allowed to breed with the Irish and the other 2 billion continued their march to extinction.
    Passing on your Genes is disgusting and horrific if you f%ck with the lights on.

    They got 200 years of civilization from 5 donors.

    They'll get another 8000 years from 200 more donors.

    Eminent domain. They have the authority to take anything they believe will enrich the state, if its devised as being left fallow by an individual. If they are actually socialists, then concepts of property are even more straight forward than that. No one owns anything, and their is no system of inheritance through blood lines that do not exist.

    The noninterference Directive is not the Prime Directive. The UN uses the Noninterference Directive IRL, and it was the reason why Picard stayed out of the Klingon Civil War.

    Masterpiece Society dropped the ball by not explaining if these people were Supermen, and therefore more than human, who would never see basic humans as their equals.

    Pike said that the humans from Terralysium were protected by the Prime Directive because they were taken from earth during World War III, before the invention of Warp Drive.

    So? Does the Priime Directive apply to Humans who are not part of the Federation?

    Ask the Maquis.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2022
  10. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2020
    Location:
    Italy
    In-vitro conception is a thing.

    There is no hint at them being superior.
    Trek being inconsistent? How surprising!
     
    Guy Gardener likes this.
  11. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    Nice Supermen.
     
  12. Crazy 4 XmasLights

    Crazy 4 XmasLights Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2020
    Never said it was right. But I do question whether it justified Riker's actions. If killing your own clone is still murder, then so is killing someone else's clone of you.

    Honestly, if they had asked for samples from me, I probably would have agreed. And they probably would have changed their mind when they found out I was on the autism spectrum. Last thing they'd want are a few hundred clones with the interpersonal skills of a brick.

    Be that as it may, I do believe that Riker had the right to refuse, but did he have the right to speak for 1000+ others?

    If they cared about their genes, cloning Riker and Pulaski (with or without their consent) was pointless.

    Especially during Season 1 of TNG. It took some time for them to even start putting together a coherent canon.
     
    jackoverfull likes this.
  13. Holly-deck One

    Holly-deck One Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2017
    Location:
    Farscape One
    Riker did look at Pulaski first before drawing his phaser on her clone... she nodded in agreement of destriying it. She gave her consent to eradicate what was stolen from her. 100%, Riker was justified.

    Put it another way: someone steals your car. You find it. Do you just let them keep it, or do you take steps to either get it back and get the person who stole it arrested?

    Their genetic material is even more their own property than any material possession, but it's the closest real world comparison I can come up with at the moment.


    Also, Riker didn't speak for the entire crew in that meeting. He voiced his opinion, Pulaski concurred, and so did Picard. Picard was the one who told them 'I believe you'll find that attitude prevalent with the rest of the crew.' Picard didn't say no on behalf of the crew, but he told them that talking to the crew would likely prove just as useless as the trio in the conference room.
     
    Ragitsu likes this.
  14. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    Turkana IV.

    The wiki seems to be indicating a formal cessation of diplomatic relations by 2352. Followed by if you land on our planet we will murder you, after civilization therein completely broke down.

    Humans can untangle from the Federation, and untangle from Earth, but I suspect that if you don't have an army, a planet, or a billion like minded friends with you when you acert your independence, the Federation is going to transport you into a holding cell, because they are worse than the Borg.
     
  15. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    In the Eugenics War, was that about clones too? Once you get the perfect soldier, you have to mass produce them, if you have the technology, right?

    After the war, normal people would insist on legal protections, for general abuse or theft of their genetic code.
     
  16. Captain Kris Kringle Pike

    Captain Kris Kringle Pike Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    Location:
    fireproof78
    Takes "Name, Image, Likeness" to a whole new level.
     
  17. Holly-deck One

    Holly-deck One Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2017
    Location:
    Farscape One
    The Eugenics Wars dealt with genetically enhanced superhumans, not clones.
     
    Ragitsu likes this.
  18. Crazy 4 XmasLights

    Crazy 4 XmasLights Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2020
    Retrieving a stolen car does not involve murdering an innocent person. Riker's actions did.

    Then I must be an anomaly. I'd probably be fine with it.
     
  19. Holly-deck One

    Holly-deck One Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2017
    Location:
    Farscape One
    They weren't developed yet. They were barely mannequin looking.

    I'll use the same argument about pregnancy from rape. I'll agree that the unbaked clones, like the unborn, is innocent, but it was forced into existence against the woman's will, just like the clones. The choice is hers, since it's her body. Same with Riker and Pulaski's stolen dna... it's part of their bodies, therefore their decision.


    I'll stop with this particular topic on this thread, since it has nothing to do with Janeway.

    But we can continue the debate on another thread, if you like. I'm just not sure what else I have to say on it. Maybe agree to disagree?
     
    jackoverfull and Ragitsu like this.
  20. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2021
    Physically incomplete and mindless (and would remain a blank slate until a personality was artificially imprinted/copied over)? Doubtful. Remember that conventional cloning doesn't duplicate thoughts and memories; I didn't see either Riker or Pulaski hooked up to brain-reading machines.
     
    Holly-deck One likes this.