When did the Janeway hatred truly start to coalesce?

[jackoverfull]

Especially considering its documented that the transporter can duplicate people - they couldn't have just duplicated Tuvix before separating him?

indeed. Sure, Riker’s was a very unusual and not easily replicated event, but it’s not as if they were in any hurry. They could have studied the issue until they were ready to duplicate Tuvix, then separate one of them into the two crewmen (preferably all in a single go, so the second tuvix isn’t “killed”) and everybody wins (and voyager gains a very experienced officer).

Also, she definitely shows quite a bit of favoritism for certain characters. Its the main ones, and I realize its just a show and thats how it needs to be, but its so damn blatant about it. Chakotay is traveling with a female ensign in a shuttle and she is killed, and no-one, for the rest of that episode, so much as mention's her. When Chakotay informs the ship of it, Janeway literally ignores it and asks him how HE is.

truth be told, this happens a lot in Star Trek. Main character in distress? Oh no, the horror! Crewmen died? Who cares?

 

[Guy Gardener]

For me, during my current rewatch, its when she sentenced Tuvix to death. That was brutal.
Especially considering its documented that the transporter can duplicate people - they couldn't have just duplicated Tuvix before separating him? Ryker's 'brother' gets a pass, but Tuvix doesn't?

Also, she definitely shows quite a bit of favoritism for certain characters. Its the main ones, and I realize its just a show and thats how it needs to be, but its so damn blatant about it. Chakotay is traveling with a female ensign in a shuttle and she is killed, and no-one, for the rest of that episode, so much as mention's her. When Chakotay informs the ship of it, Janeway literally ignores it and asks him how HE is. Like the woman was just some nameless piece of garbage that can be thrown away. When Kes or Neelix are in danger Janeway wrings her hands and is willing to go to the ends of the Delta quadrant for them, but an actual, STARFLEET crewmember? They're trash. And if there is the slightest chance an evil Caradassian woman had Chakotay's baby, Janeway is willing to go weeks out of their way to help him (which was a trap, which they suspected, and walked right into anyway because she has no control over her emotions).

Sure, its ST, and I have to admit Voyager is probably a lot more like the TOS than most of the other shows (planet/species of the week), but yeesh, they can be a little less blatant about it. 'Red shirts' indeed.

The problem was that Tuvix was a cage that was torturing Tuvok and Neelix.

If you create a duplicate Tuvix, then you have 2 trapped Neelixs and two trapped Tuvoks.

Which two do you free?

Are you freeing the original two, or two crap fake copies?

 

[Ragitsu]

<the ethical quandaries of treating transporter technology as a ditto-machine for sentient beings>

 

[jackoverfull]

The problem was that Tuvix was a cage that was torturing Tuvok and Neelix.

No it wasn’t. That’s not anywhere in the episode. Neelix and Tuvok weren’t suffering, as they no longer existed.

<the ethical quandaries of treating transporter technology as a ditto-machine for sentient beings>

are very important but in this case I think less so than allowing a person to die to save two. The reason I wrote that the duplication and separation procedures should have been done together is exactly to alleviate the ethical issues of creating a new life to immediately destroy it.
The issue is still there, of course, but I believe it was a better option than what we got.

 

[DonIago]

I still think that if they had any intention of separating Tuvix then they should have put him into stasis as quickly as possible, rather than allowing him to believe he might be allowed to continue his joined existence.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I didn't mean they were literally conscious and aware inside Tuvix.

JANEWAY: Aren't there two other lives to consider here? What about Tuvok and Neelix? Two voices that we can't hear right now. As Captain, I must be their voice, and I believe they would want to live.
TUVIX: But they are living in a way, inside me.

But they are inside him burdened with some serious functional confinement.

 

[Oddish]

Nor could I really fault Mark for it. For all he knew, Janeway was most likely dead, and even if he had known, should he have put his life into waiting mode indefinitely, until she returned one day?

No, I agree. Mark did nothing wrong. And Janeway clearly did not fault him.

For me, during my current rewatch, its when she sentenced Tuvix to death. That was brutal.

Extremely. It reminded me of a convict being walked from their cell to the electric chair.

Especially considering its documented that the transporter can duplicate people - they couldn't have just duplicated Tuvix before separating him? Ryker's 'brother' gets a pass, but Tuvix doesn't?

I think that Riker's duplication occured under very specific atmospheric conditions. It was impossible to just randomly replicate.

No it wasn’t. That’s not anywhere in the episode. Neelix and Tuvok weren’t suffering, as they no longer existed.

We have a Tuvix topic, if you really want to get into this.

But in short, yes. Tuvix is very much a reason for a person to decide that that don't like Janeway much.

 

[jackoverfull]

I still think that if they had any intention of separating Tuvix then they should have put him into stasis as quickly as possible, rather than allowing him to believe he might be allowed to continue his joined existence.

could have been a good idea.

I didn't mean they were literally conscious and aware inside Tuvix.



But they are inside him burdened with some serious functional confinement.

or perhaps they were content of being a joined being, like Curzon and Odo.

I think that Riker's duplication occured under very specific atmospheric conditions.

Sure.

It was impossible to just randomly replicate

impossible is a big word. They already did a transporter miracle to separate them, could have already investigated this option.

 

[Captrek]

could have been a good idea.

or perhaps they were content of being a joined being, like Curzon and Odo.


Sure.
impossible is a big word. They already did a transporter miracle to separate them, could have already investigated this option.

Imagine the implications if it were replicable? Every time I go on a dangerous away mission, let’s duplicate me as a backup. Keep the backup in stasis. If I die, wake the backup. If I’m OK, destroy the backup.

Or I’ll just do like Michael Keaton in Multiplicity and make a bunch of myselves to split my workload.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

Starfleet frowns upon murdering transporter clones.

 

[jackoverfull]

Imagine the implications if it were replicable? Every time I go on a dangerous away mission, let’s duplicate me as a backup. Keep the backup in stasis. If I die, wake the backup. If I’m OK, destroy the backup.

it’s pretty clear this could be done. It has happened twice already (four times if we count the split Kirk, which I don’t), so all it needs to be done is enough research.

If anything, it’s etics that keeps them for doing as you suggest. They really don’t like having duplicates.

 

[fireproof78]

Starfleet frowns upon murdering transporter clones.

But not regular clones, like Riker did in "Up the Long Latter."

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

That became illegal a few years later in "A Man Alone", so it's lucky Riker killed his clone when he did or else he would've been stuck with two of him walking around.

 

[Ragitsu]

That became illegal a few years later in "A Man Alone", so it's lucky Riker killed his clone when he did or else he would've been stuck with two of him walking around.

Then again, Bajoran law may not align with Federation law.

 

[Oddish]

I feel like a steamroller just hit me.

 

[fireproof78]

That became illegal a few years later in "A Man Alone", so it's lucky Riker killed his clone when he did or else he would've been stuck with two of him walking around.

Odo is not a Starfleet officer.

 

[Captrek]

Odo is not a Starfleet officer.

“Killing your own clone is still murder… under Bajoran law. If you were smarter you’d have done it under Federation jurisdiction, where it’s legal!”

 

[fireproof78]

“Killing your own clone is still murder… under Bajoran law. If you were smarter you’d have done it under Federation jurisdiction, where it’s legal!”

But, they'll still get you for illegal genetic experiments.

 

[Ragitsu]

“Killing your own clone is still murder… under Bajoran law. If you were smarter you’d have done it under Federation jurisdiction, where it’s legal!”

Wasn't Riker's clone partially developed and - mentally - tabula rasa? The other clone was fully developed with an accompanying personality.

 

[Farscape One]

Not only was there no law establishing Riker killing his clone being illegal, but his and Pulaski's dna was stolen from them. They were assaulted with a weapon and subjected to a procedure they said no to earlier in the episode.

It would be like telling a woman who was raped and was pregnant due to that rape that she had no choice but to carry that baby to term. It's her body, her choice. Same applies to Riker and Pulaski's clone situation.