When did the Janeway hatred truly start to coalesce?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Ragitsu, Nov 17, 2021.

  1. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^It would help if you cited some examples.
     
  2. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    One action of hers that's presented as a "mistake" was her actions toward the EMH in "Latent Image", but I personally don't see that as a mistake per se. Certainly, the Doc was more than a mere tool, but he had technological limitations: he could not make life and death decisions outside of his triage subroutines. Modifying his memory was justified under those circumstances, just like cutting off a person's arm would be a cruel act of mutilation, unless it was done with the intent of saving their life.

    Of course, the ideal solution would be to simply modify his decision-making algorithms, but I guess no one thought of that.
     
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  3. Dee1891

    Dee1891 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Has it become the new thing to criticize Janeway for being "flawless" or a Mary Sue now? I supposed it's a change from criticizing Janeway for being a terrible captain. Wow. It seems the Trek fandom either can't decide on a reason to dislike her or they desperately need a reason to dislike her . . . even after 27 years.
     
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  4. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    In any case, that doesn't really establish that Janeway has flaws, just that she made a judgment call that didn't work out well.

    One would think "Equinox" and to a lesser extent "Year of Hell" might be cases that demonstrated her flaws, except the episodes don't really do so.
     
  5. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't have strong opinions on Janeway either way, especially given I haven't watched the show in a long time and Voyager was never my favorite, but I don't think any of this is new...
     
  6. Dee1891

    Dee1891 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    She made judgment calls, but she isn't flawed? And yeah . . . those episodes did demonstrate her flaws. I'll say this again. It seems as if the majority of the Trek fandom really need an excuse to dislike Janeway. And it seems as if they cannot make up their minds on why she is a bad character. Because of this, I cannot help but feel that this dislike toward Janeway might come from good ole' fashioned sexism.
     
  7. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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  8. Dee1891

    Dee1891 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Can you think of a list of the worst things done by other Trek captains? Especially those who are men? I can:

    The Worst Things Captain Kirk Has Ever Done (grunge.com)

    Star Trek: 10 Times Captain Picard Was The Worst | ScreenRant

    How Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Made Sisko a War Criminal (cbr.com)

    Why Captain Jonathan Archer is the worst Captain ever. — perfectworld-startrekonline (arcgames.com)

    I would include Michael Burnham, but she is just as hated as Kathryn Janeway. Probably even more. And I'm not that familiar with Christopher Pike. All I know is he bores me.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2022 at 4:54 PM
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  9. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Just to be clear, I like Janeway. A lot. Mulgrew did a fantastic job, especially considering how she was written. She's simply not in my top 3 captains list.

    I can't speak to whether or not other people are sexist against Janeway, but I find it tiring that just because some people don't like Janeway as much as the others it automatically makes them sexist.

    It's the same assumption when people don't hold Sisko as their favorite, they are thought of as racist. He is my favorite, but it's because he has nearly all the qualities I look for in a leader. And he was very, very layered. But I can also see why some don't view him as their favorite, or even top 3. They might have a different take on what they feel makes a good leader. They might prefer a more diplomatic intellectual leader, like Picard. Or a more fresh in space one who is simply trying to learn it all like Archer.

    My point is aren't people entitled to have their opinion on why they don't like a particular character without assuming "insert ism, phobic, or other term here'?

    It's reductive thinking like that that's a huge reason why we've got so many problems in the world now.
     
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  10. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I briefly looked at that list, and truthfully the only one that truly qualifies as a worst thing is the alliance with the Borg.

    (I refuse to use Tuvix as one, because all presented choices were bad. Kobayashi Maru.)

    ALL the captains have done very questionable things.
     
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  11. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Funny, I don't consider most ot the things on that list 'errors' from Janeway's side and most things are not presented fairly on that list. For example did she doom the Ocampa by destroying the Array? Perhaps; we have no way of knowing what happened to them after she left. Was NOT destroying it a better option? Absolutely not. Even if they had stayed in that area to protect the Ocampa, quite soon Kazon would have shown up in such numbers that they would have defeated / destroyed Voyager and taken over that array. At least, in early Voyager. In late Voyager, when assimilation has become easily reversible and outsmarting the Borg Queen herself ihas almost become a routine job, SuperJaneway might still have prevailed, which is part of my problem with her.

    I would view only 7, 6, and 4 as potential mistakes on her part. And then still.

    7 isn't even true as stated ('every one got promoted except Kim'), after the integration of the Maquis and remnants of the original Starfleet crew, when they needed to fill some important positions, very few people were promoted over the next years, that we know of - only Tuvok and Tom, if I recall correctly. 4 could have been a human vulnerability I already have mentioned in an earlier post yesterday in this thread I wish would have been explored more than it was. 6 was an error Picard made as well and I'm not even sure how this exactly would have been Janeway's fault - it was Tom who made the additions that ultimately made them sentient without telling the others about. In all other cases I think she potentially made the right call under the circumstances, even if those calls perhaps didn't always work out entirely as she intended. In my view a much graver problem, i.e. how she completely went over the edge and lost her personal restraints in Equinox (a bit like Sisko's vendetta against Eddington) isn't even on this list.

    But even in that case, she was never shown to be in the wrong, or forced to admit that she perhaps went too far there. The only case where she was confronted with some potentially wrongdoing I recall was in Hope and Fear, going back to her Scorpion decision and that was a decision I actually agree with Janeway that she had to act quickly, and made the best call under the circumstances that she could and that she couldn't have foreseen all the consequences seems a valid defense to me. Also, Arcturis is clearly beyond reason by this point- he just wants revenge, and gets assimilated as a reward.

    Mulling over it a bit, I think I actually like early Janeway. It's the later seasons Janeway I've got a few problems with.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2022 at 6:02 PM
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  12. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    My point was not that Janeway was different from the other captains, it's that she was the same: extraordinary but not infallible. I still maintain that the writers were afraid to have her make mistakes, though. But given that the writers couldn't even figure out how to count to 38 or promote a frickin' ensign, they were about as successful as you'd expect.
     
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  13. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    One thing about the 38 torpedo count...

    I would imagine it's hard for the writers to keep track of a number like that over the sessons due to visual effects department shooting more torpedoes than what may be called for. Having said that, there should have been someone on staff that keeps track of those little things to help steer the writers when needed.
     
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  14. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    And as I've said, I'm totally Ok with them changing it, if they give us a reasonable explanation.
     
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  15. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I agree fully.
     
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  16. Summer Solstice

    Summer Solstice Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    From the later seasons you might enjoy the following episodes:

    Thirty Days
    Counterpoint
    Bliss
    Alice
    Dragon's Teeth
    Blink of an Eye
    Muse
    The Void

    They are all stand-alone episodes with an alien of the week. "Bliss" has a space creature. I could imaging "The Void" being an episode of TOS. The planet in "Blink of an Eye" is particularly weird.
     
  17. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Captain Captain

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    Can you imagine if - during the events of Equinox - Chakotay had not only gone through with his mutiny, but he had ultimately been portrayed as being in the right? How would the perception of Janeway have shifted? I can think of two instances during TNG when Riker had mutiny on his mind; he only fully went through with the act of rebellion once, but both times Picard was clearly "not himself". Janeway, on the other hand, wasn't possessed by an alien consciousness nor was she a duplicate testing her crew as part of an experiment: she willingly chose her increasingly extreme methods.
     
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  18. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Good question... it was already a good episode. Would lamenting Janeway's actions for what they were have made it even better?
     
  19. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Captain Captain

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    Celebrity/"hero" worship is never wise behavior. Case in point. Fictional characters - at least - can be written a certain way.

    On the other hand...giving Chakotay meaningful development? Verboten.
     
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  20. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    No, you did not.