When did the Janeway hatred truly start to coalesce?

[at Quark's]

Man, I really need to work on my expressions of sarcasm .

My apologies if I misinterpreted you. Bare text doesn't give that much context, after all

Even so, I think I'll just leave the response, as it contains a summary of why I have some trouble with the Janeway character, and writing it all up helped me to order my thoughts

 

[yotsuya]

I was not aware she was hated. I personally think she is great. Though to be honest I never finished Voyager. Or DS9.

I'm loving her on Prodigy. I find her to be a very strong and capable captain. I'm glad the first actress didn't work out. Kate Mulgrew was much better and made the character. I just didn't like the way the series was written. I had hopes when it started that as they traveled back to the Federation, the series would be more like TOS by encountering some new alien or planet or space danger every week. Instead they kept getting involved with the locals and bogged down in unnecessary negotiations. The ship should be self sufficient for a great many years with the occasional need to resupply, but it seemed to become more about interacting rather than voyaging. And as someone else said, when the series shined, it really shined. I just wish they would have had more like that.

 

[Ragitsu]

My apologies if I misinterpreted you. Bare text doesn't give that much context, after all

Even so, I think I'll just leave the response, as it contains a summary of why I have some trouble with the Janeway character, and writing it all up helped me to order my thoughts

Well, I didn't want to risk that bulge in my cheek being too evident .

Even so, I think I'll just leave the response, as it contains a summary of why I have some trouble with the Janeway character, and writing it all up helped me to order my thoughts

Additional context is always appreciated.

I was not aware she was hated. I personally think she is great. Though to be honest I never finished Voyager. Or DS9.

Oh, yes: the internet (and definitely YouTube in particular) is littered with spent effigies of Voyager's captain.

 

[Pumpkin Bread]

Oh, yes: the internet (and definitely YouTube in particular) is littered with spent effigies of Voyager's captain

You know what? Kathryn Elizabeth Janeway made fear piss his pants, ordered death to go back to hell (and was obeyed), blew off an omnipotent being like he was an amorous drunk in a bar, took out a Covid bug the size of a Yorkshire terrier with a knife, decimated the Borg in multiple timelines, and had three dozen Maquis eating out of her hand. If you told her that a bunch of obstreperous internet users hated her, she would laugh and ask why exactly she should care.

 

[Ragitsu]

Covid bug?

 

[Pumpkin Bread]

With a knife.

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[Ragitsu]

I'm not seeing the link/similarity between those organisms and a contemporary disease.

 

[Godofbiscuits]

Good morning.

Curious...was this vehemently contemptuous attitude in the Star Trek fan base towards Janeway's personality/decisions always a "thing" even back during the 1990s or did it become grossly evident later on down the line (perhaps with the advent of YouTube)?

So many people were predisposed to hate her from the start. Because "girl". It's true. I remember it. FFS, there were ongoing arguments about her HAIR STYLE. They gave her the bun from hell and made her wear it for multiple seasons because they thought a female captain who had the hairstyle of, y'know, a female, wouldn't command respect. So yeah, people hated her or at the very least, had zero good will towards anything she did.

 

[Ragitsu]

FFS, there were ongoing arguments about her HAIR STYLE. They gave her the bun from hell and made her wear it for multiple seasons because they thought a female captain who had the hairstyle of, y'know, a female, wouldn't command respect.

If that's the case, I'm surprised she wasn't asked to wear a short do from the beginning ("power hair").

 

[Summer Solstice]

I'm not seeing the link/similarity between those organisms and a contemporary disease.

It's a Delta Quadrant virus vs Delta Covid variant joke.

 

[at Quark's]

So many people were predisposed to hate her from the start. Because "girl". It's true. I remember it. FFS, there were ongoing arguments about her HAIR STYLE. They gave her the bun from hell and made her wear it for multiple seasons because they thought a female captain who had the hairstyle of, y'know, a female, wouldn't command respect. So yeah, people hated her or at the very least, had zero good will towards anything she did.

Because she was a woman captain and the writers were aware of such existing dispositions, she had to do everything right. Had she been allowed to make mistakes, be wrong on occasion, and know weaknesses like an ordinary human being, the haters would have used that as an argument 'why Janeway sucks' or in whatever less than polite words they would have clothed it in. And yes, I think the character as a whole suffered because of that fear to make her vulnerable.

 

[Guy Gardener]

On the brink of extinction, She gave holotech to the Hirogen to prolong their culture, even though they didn't want it, and then they invented artificial life with Federation technology, and tortured it for fun, who then rose up and almost exterminated the Hirogen.

She.

Does.

Not.

Understand.

General.

Order.

One.

 

[at Quark's]

While throwing a hissy fit when even so much as a replicator schematic leaked out to the Kazon.

Then again, replicators could make the Kazon much more dangerous, while presumably, holotechnology would have made the Hirogen less dangerous (for other species).

You know what? Kathryn Elizabeth Janeway made fear piss his pants, ordered death to go back to hell (and was obeyed), blew off an omnipotent being like he was an amorous drunk in a bar, took out a Covid bug the size of a Yorkshire terrier with a knife, decimated the Borg in multiple timelines, and had three dozen Maquis eating out of her hand. If you told her that a bunch of obstreperous internet users hated her, she would laugh and ask why exactly she should care.

Or about complaints about her officer promotion policies, for that matter

 

[Summer Solstice]

While throwing a hissy fit when even so much as a replicator schematic leaked out to the Kazon.

Then again, replicators could make the Kazon much more dangerous, while presumably, holotechnology would have made the Hirogen less dangerous (for other species).

That really jumped out at me on rewatching the whole show over a few months whereas it was less obvious (to me) when the show was first on. I'm a bit confused about where the line is with what is and isn't a prime directive violation. Have any of you made a list of prime directive violations in Voyager? In "Blink of an Eye" they obviously massively affected a pre-warp civilisation by accident, so I think that is a prime directive violation. In "Dragon's Teeth" when Seven woke up the Vaadwaur they really affected the balance of power in the Delta Quadrant but I'm not sure whether that's a prime directive violation.

 

[Guy Gardener]

While throwing a hissy fit when even so much as a replicator schematic leaked out to the Kazon.

Then again, replicators could make the Kazon much more dangerous, while presumably, holotechnology would have made the Hirogen less dangerous (for other species).



Or about complaints about her officer promotion policies, for that matter

Iso linear Chips.

Bio neural gel packs.

The parts used to make a replicator could increase the efficiency of other parts of the kazon ship that was hundreds of years behind Voyager.

Shields, targeting sensors, long range sensors and calculating warp fields is all about processing power, rather than more juice from the engine.

 

[Pumpkin Bread]

Or about complaints about her officer promotion policies, for that matter

I completely forgot about that one. She completely demolishes Harry's Starfleet career by keeping him at ensign for seven years and ensuring that he'll be lucky to land a posting on a frickin' garbage scow when Voyager returns to the Alpha Quadrant... and he still worships the ground she walks on.

 

[Frightscape One]

Janeway being written without any flaws is actually one of the reasons she is in my lower tier of captains... the other being the total inconsistency of her actions and motivations over the years.

All the others had flaws... Kirk let his devil may care bravado get the best of him sometimes, Picard was emotionally closed off to most people, Sisko had obsessive tendencies, Archer had some bigotry about Vulcans (which he later grew out of). Having inherent character flaws makes them relatable and, most importantly, believable.

And all of those captains were able to take those flaws and use them to their advantage on occasion. By not giving Janeway any flaws, you rob the character of some potentially really great stories.

 

[Pumpkin Bread]

True. When I call her the Chuck Norris of Star Trek, it's not meant to be completely flattering.

 

[Dee1891]

Because she was a woman captain and the writers were aware of such existing dispositions, she had to do everything right. Had she been allowed to make mistakes, be wrong on occasion, and know weaknesses like an ordinary human being, the haters would have used that as an argument 'why Janeway sucks' or in whatever less than polite words they would have clothed it in. And yes, I think the character as a whole suffered because of that fear to make her vulnerable.

But Janeway had been portrayed as vulnerable on several occasions. She had been written as flawed. She had made mistakes like the other Trek captains. I know this, because I'm a big fan of "Voyager". Because of this, I don't see how her character had suffered from any lack of vulnerability. Janeway was never some Mary Sue. On the other hand, I do agree that because Janeway was a woman, a captain and the lead in a Trek series, many fans had unfairly judged her in compared to her male counterparts.

 

[DonIago]

^It would help if you cited some examples.