When did the Janeway hatred truly start to coalesce?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Ragitsu, Nov 17, 2021.

  1. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm not so sure. I mean, think about it. They spend months building this new engine. According to Torres, they test it 'molecule by molecule'. Everybody rejoices and is convinced this will get them home. Then Paris -not even an engineer- gets a bad feeling about it and runs a few simulations. All of which end in disaster.
    I mean, shouldn't they have run those simulations and discover these problems in a much earlier phase? Like, from before they even started building the engine, and when they were building the engine, continually refining them, rather than just 'the night before'?
     
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  2. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^Well, I did say "that I recall". :)
     
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  3. Ray Hardgrit

    Ray Hardgrit Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I've been watching through Voyager in order recently and I just got to Hope and Fear, where a security team utterly fails to stop Arturis activating his trap and robbing them of a ship that could get them home. At this point my theory is security just doesn't want to go home and is secretly aiding the villains.
     
  4. Summer Solstice

    Summer Solstice Captain Captain

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    Starfleet security teams always seem to be really bad. I know it's frequently necessary for the plot but still...
     
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  5. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yes, the plot requires them to fail on many instances, but in some instances it makes our heroes look worse than in others.

    One example I always found really jarring is from TNG: Rascals when a renegade Ferengi crew manages to overpower the (supposedly) finest crew in Starfleet.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2022
  6. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I do not understand Starfleet security at all. Repeatedly it is show to be a failure, and the main characters (regardless of rank or billet) are able to step up and win the day. Look at Janeway grabbing a bat'leth against the Borg in "Unimatrix Zero" or as @at Quark's notes, Rascals, where a ship full of Starfleet officers is taken down by two birds of prey helmed by Ferengi.

    Anyone expecting help from Starfleet Security is grossly misinformed.
     
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  7. Captrek

    Captrek Vice Admiral Admiral

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    They were very helpful in TSFS. ;)
     
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  8. Captain's Coffee

    Captain's Coffee Commander Red Shirt

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    Starfleet security be like:

    Red Alert! Emergency! Security to Engineering!
    *Worf casually strolling towards engineering*
     
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  9. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Remember that in "Investigations", Starfleet security was unable to catch Jonas, but Neelix of all people took him out.
     
  10. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

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    kira and janeway are two different persons with two different cultures and two different command styles, they are also sensitive to different things. I really don’t see the problem.
     
  11. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And also, it allowed Tom to be cocky without being insubordinate, with the insouciant way he always said "yes, ma'am."
     
  12. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    At least, the Prophets had enough sense to not install waiting room muzak and a cheery voice saying 'the Prophets will be with you momentarily! Just a moment of your patience, please' every 90 seconds or so. Imagine 50-100 years of that, Benjamin would have begged Jake to find quicker ways to terminate that timeline already.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2022
  13. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't think that's where Ben was, though. He had zero sense of time when he was displaced. When he and Jake were together, time passed normally.

    Or terminated it himself. I can just imagine Sisko emerging from that place crazy as a rat in a tin outhouse and immediately strangling Jake. Which I guess would have worked as well as Jake poisoning himself.
     
  14. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    While I, too, don't think he was really in the same place / condition, I also have no indication that Sisko had any sense of time passing when he was in the Prophet's limbo.
     
  15. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    How much - if any - grief did Janeway catch for negotiating with the Borg?
     
  16. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    Why the heck would the Maquis want to go home to a Federation jail?

    It's likely they want to get close to home, but jump ship before some shows up with handcudffs and directions to the brig.

    Alternately, you want to lock these people up, before they get back to the DQ and use all the weird alien tech they found in the DQ to annihilate Cardassia Prime as retaliation for those spoonheads cleaning out the Badlands.
     
  17. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The Maquis members that became part of Voyager's crew were likely granted amnesty.
     
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  18. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, she did, in Hope and Fear. Or do you mean, from the home front? (i.e. in the form of criticism from Starfleet after she returned home).
     
  19. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Apologies for the ambiguity: I meant within the Star Trek fan base.
     
  20. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^Well, it was a difficult situation. The 8472 seemed even worse than the Borg, the greater danger at the time. Not just for Voyager, but for the galaxy as a whole. What else could she have done? Allying with neither, go in, and hope for the best, and then end up either assimilated or destroyed or both? Retract, try to find a safe planet, only to be confronted by the winner of the conflict later on, which probably would be species 8472?

    Yes, Arturis' criticism ('you couldn't see past the bulkheads of your ship!') was perhaps valid, but any solution that would have saved the ship and Janeway's moral integrity most likely would have been a writer's deus ex machina solution, not a credible one.

    8472 later turned out to be a species that perhaps could be reasoned with, but that's a later retcon. It certainly didn't seem so at the time.

    So, this is one decision I can't really fault Janeway for, even though I understand it's controversial.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2022