When did the Janeway hatred truly start to coalesce?

[at Quark's]

Whilst "Latent Image" is very good drama, computer programs don't work the way the Doctor does in that episode. Suppose the EMH has a database of who is on Voyager and he orders that information by "priority" ie who is the most valuable to the crew. No one on that list will be in the same position as anyone else, even if the secondary sort order is something trivial like the order in which they were added to the database. Even if you don't specify a secondary sort order parameter, the database still uses one.

EMH: Computer? What does this sorting parameter "regular cast member/recurring cast/added extra / added extra without lines" specify, and why is Ensign Kim a member of the first group but not Ensign Jetal? I've never seen this one before ...
COMPUTER: That information requires a level ten clearance.
EMH: Level ten clearance? But clearances only go up to level nine!
COMPUTER: They do go higher, but not within this universe.
EMH: What's that supposed to mean?
COMPUTER: That information requires a level ten clearance. Now start operating on Ensign Kim.

 

[fireproof78]

i’ll be happy to!
For example: https://interestingengineering.com/how-safe-are-self-driving-cars

note that even if in _almost all cases_ the culprit of an accident involving a self-driving vehicle was in fact a human, skewing then the statistics, those statistics are still in favour of the self-driving cars by order of magnitude.

this article is also quite interesting: https://www.forbes.com/sites/lancee...-cars-to-humans-at-the-wheel/?sh=58dbc07d46ed

I find fascinating that 60% of fatal accidents are caused by either the driver being drunk or speeding, situations that clearly wouldn’t happen with an artificial intelligence at the wheel.

Quotes like this are what give me pause:

Elon Musk, the CEO of Tesla, which is admittedly one of the leaders in the autonomous car industry, has said that eventually, self-driving cars will be so safe that regulators will have to determine whether to ban manual driving.

It's the continual effort to remove the human that will always leave me skeptical.

 

[jackoverfull]

Quotes like this are what give me pause:

It's the continual effort to remove the human that will always leave me skeptical.

you've made it abundantly clear.

Still, we’re talking about saving around 3700 lives per day, that conclusion doesn’t seem that far fetched to me. I’ll add it that I don’t see it happening in our lifetime, and not because it wouldn’t be a good thing, but because such decision will have popular support only after a couple of generations are born in a world with self driving vehicles.

 

[fireproof78]

you've made it abundantly clear.

Still, we’re talking about saving around 3700 lives per day, that conclusion doesn’t seem that far fetched to me. I’ll add it that I don’t see it happening in our lifetime, and not because it wouldn’t be a good thing, but because such decision will have popular support only after a couple of generations are born in a world with self driving vehicles.

I think it will happen in my life time. Your source made it clear that once regulation is pushed forward the auto manufactures will follow suit. No one wants to be the first without the regulations in place.

As far as banning human drivers, I would recommend always having the choice for manual control and training of some kind. You may trust the machine; I do not.

 

[Oddish]

Well, if they perfected self driving school buses, my job might actually be more fun. They'd still need a human on the bus to manage the students, after all.

 

[jackoverfull]

I think it will happen in my life time. Your source made it clear that once regulation is pushed forward the auto manufactures will follow suit. No one wants to be the first without the regulations in place.

I was talking about banning human drivers: I don’t see that happening in our lifetime (glad to be proven wrong, though!).

As far as banning human drivers, I would recommend always having the choice for manual control and training of some kind. You may trust the machine; I do not.

I think that for the next few decades all private vehicles will still offer a manual control option. What I’d love to see in a few years is for a change in laws, allowing self-driving vehicles to drive on their own, as at the moment everywhere I’m aware of it’s still compulsory to have a human with a license at the wheel. This will allow two things:
1) people who can’t drive (or have no interest in driving!) will have the option of going around with cars. I’m thinking for example of all the senior citizens that can no longer keep a license and are currently reliant on family or taxis to get around, but also people that simply have zero interest in driving (there are more and more of them) but would still like to move around by car on occasion.
2) it would bring car sharing to a whole new level: instead of having to reach a parked car that is doing nothing but wasting space, a car that’s already on the move could immediately reach the next passenger, reducing the downtime and, consequently, the size of the fleet, costs and pollution generated while also freeing up parking space. In fact an optimum situation would be to virtually eliminate the ownership of a private car in favour of car sharing: just imagine that instead of having millions of cars that are parked most of the time we could have thousands that are always on the move and always useful (I’m speaking in broad strokes here, of course…clearly at night time some of those cars wouldn’t be needed, for instance, but I think you get the idea).

 

[fireproof78]

I was talking about banning human drivers: I don’t see that happening in our lifetime (glad to be proven wrong, though!).

Why not? If it is as great as the research says then what's to stop it? Just order it done.

1) people who can’t drive (or have no interest in driving!) will have the option of going around with cars. I’m thinking for example of all the senior citizens that can no longer keep a license and are currently reliant on family or taxis to get around, but also people that simply have zero interest in driving (there are more and more of them) but would still like to noce around by car on occasion.
2) it would bring car sharing to a whole new level: instead of having to reach a parked car that is doing nothing but wasting space, a car that’s already on the move could immediately reach the next passenger, reducing the downtime and, consequently, the size of the fleet, costs and pollution generated while also freeing up parking space. In fact an optimum situation would be to virtually eliminate the ownership of a private car in favour of car sharing: just imagine that instead of having millions of cars that are parked most of the time we could have thousands that are always on the move and always useful (I’m speaking in broad strokes here, of course…clearly at night time some of those cars wouldn’t be needed, for instance, but I think you get the idea).

I agree for senior citizens that would be nice, and I would also hope that hospitals and medical type companies would have their own fleet to support clients coming to the office.

The second point is a little more hazy. For me, I live very far out of town, rurally. I commute about an hour to work. So, while my car is parked, it is important to have access to it at a moment's notice due to the time it takes to get to work. However, I would hope that in larger cities and metropolitan areas that would be more possible, and reduce parking constraints.

 

[jackoverfull]

Why not? If it is as great as the research says then what's to stop it? Just order it done.

As I said, I’d love for this to happen in the next few years, I just don’t think that there would be enough public support for a politician to even propose it.

The second point is a little more hazy. For me, I live very far out of town, rurally. I commute about an hour to work. So, while my car is parked, it is important to have access to it at a moment's notice due to the time it takes to get to work. However, I would hope that in larger cities and metropolitan areas that would be more possible, and reduce parking constraints.

that was what I meant with “virtually”: if you live in a rural area you’ll still need to own your own car for many, many years. I’m myself another exception: I need to have a car big enough to load all my gear, reach at times a remote location and be certain that the car is still available when I finish at 2am or so. In fact when I was living in berlin I was one of the few people my age I knew to own a car, everyone else was quite happy going around with the public transportation and occasional car-sharing service.

 

[fireproof78]

As I said, I’d love for this to happen in the next few years, I just don’t think that there would be enough public support for a politician to even propose it.

I think politicians will propose it regardless of public support. For the good of the people as it were.

that was what I meant with “virtually”: if you live in a rural area you’ll still need to own your own car for many, many years. I’m myself another exception: I need to have a car big enough to load all my gear, reach at times a remote location and be certain that the car is still available when I finish at 2am or so. In fact when I was living in berlin I was one of the few people my age I knew to own a car, everyone else was quite happy going around with the public transportation and occasional car-sharing service.

I think this would be more a restrictive point of any broad base legislation would be limited depending on the area. Major metro areas would benefit strongly, but out in the US (where I live at) is heavily rural so requiring it would depend maybe on population.

 

[jackoverfull]

I think politicians will propose it regardless of public support. For the good of the people as it were.

its also an economic nightmare: you can’t expect to replace virtually all the current car park with SDV within a couple of decades. MAYBE in 50 years if there is enough push (due to fuel shortage, for example).

I think this would be more a restrictive point of any broad base legislation would be limited depending on the area. Major metro areas would benefit strongly, but out in the US (where I live at) is heavily rural so requiring it would depend maybe on population

precisely. And this is one if the reasons why a mixed solution, where self driving is an easily affordable option but not mandatory is the best outcome for the time being.

 

[fireproof78]

its also an economic nightmare: you can’t expect to replace virtually all the current car park with SDV within a couple of decades. MAYBE in 50 years if there is enough push (due to fuel shortage, for example).

Well, I plan on living another 50 (more or less) so I do expect it in my lifetime

precisely. And this is one if the reasons why a mixed solution, where self driving is an easily affordable option but not mandatory is the best outcome for the time being.

Not mandatory is the best thing to my mind.

 

[Summer Solstice]

I think it's incredible that auto-pilot on planes is safe, but clearly it must be as it's been around for a while and we don't hear about masses of plane accidents.

 

[fireproof78]

I think it's incredible that auto-pilot on planes is safe, but clearly it must be as it's been around for a while and we don't hear about masses of plane accidents.

I mean, look at the stupidity that happened with cruise control.

 

[Farscape One]

Having fully automated vehicles with no manual override ability is beyond stupid. Have we not learned from THE TERMINATOR? Skynet was given full control of all military weapons, and it nearly destroyed humanity, with the machines continuing to eradicate any they find.

Or how about a less extreme example, that is done today on a daily basis.

Hacking.

If our election ballots, utilities, home computers, and nuclear facilities can be hacked into by outsiders, you really think computer controlled cars are going to be immune?

Hell, I don't like how cars are designed now with this feature... button ignition. I absolutely F*CKING HATE them with a passion because if their 'keyless fob' sensor is even slightly off or somewhat low on batteries, it won't let you start the car. My wife's car has that, and it's had to have batteries changed constantly. I hate the idea that if the button doesn't work, you can't even start your engine. At least with a key, if it doesn't start, there's usually a way to get it going without having to call for a tow.

It's one of the reasons why I still have my 2001 Chevy truck... it's not that computer controlled.

 

[Summer Solstice]

I mean, look at the stupidity that happened with cruise control.

You do have a point there.

Having fully automated vehicles with no manual override ability is beyond stupid. Have we not learned from THE TERMINATOR? Skynet was given full control of all military weapons, and it nearly destroyed humanity, with the machines continuing to eradicate any they find.

Or how about a less extreme example, that is done today on a daily basis.

Hacking.

If our election ballots, utilities, home computers, and nuclear facilities can be hacked into by outsiders, you really think computer controlled cars are going to be immune?

Hell, I don't like how cars are designed now with this feature... button ignition. I absolutely F*CKING HATE them with a passion because if their 'keyless fob' sensor is even slightly off or somewhat low on batteries, it won't let you start the car. My wife's car has that, and it's had to have batteries changed constantly. I hate the idea that if the button doesn't work, you can't even start your engine. At least with a key, if it doesn't start, there's usually a way to get it going without having to call for a tow.

It's one of the reasons why I still have my 2001 Chevy truck... it's not that computer controlled.

It sounds incredibly annoying to have to change the batteries constantly.

Slightly more on topic, Janeway showed excellent character in Future's End when she manually launched the torpedo herself rather than ordering someone else to do it. I'm not sure that Deanna should have passed the commander exam when it didn't occur to her that she could try to do the very dangerous thing herself.

 

[fireproof78]

Hacking.

I am looking forward to the CSI episode all about a person being murdered by a car hack.

 

[Ragitsu]

I am one of them; there is more important information to store in my braincase than the basics of automobile operation.

 

[jackoverfull]

I think it's incredible that auto-pilot on planes is safe, but clearly it must be as it's been around for a while and we don't hear about masses of plane accidents.

well, there are far less chances of meeting someone doing stupid things while you are flying.

Having fully automated vehicles with no manual override ability is beyond stupid. Have we not learned from THE TERMINATOR? Skynet was given full control of all military weapons, and it nearly destroyed humanity, with the machines continuing to eradicate any they find

that was a movie.

If our election ballots, utilities, home computers, and nuclear facilities can be hacked into by outsiders, you really think computer controlled cars are going to be immune?

It has happened already. As with every technology there are intrinsic risks and vulnerabilities, this is nothing new.

Hell, I don't like how cars are designed now with this feature... button ignition. I absolutely F*CKING HATE them with a passion because if their 'keyless fob' sensor is even slightly off or somewhat low on batteries, it won't let you start the car. My wife's car has that, and it's had to have batteries changed constantly. I hate the idea that if the button

sounds like your wife’s car has some issue. My father had one of those keyless car for a decade or so and it never had any problem similar to yours.

 

[fireproof78]

Hell, I don't like how cars are designed now with this feature... button ignition. I absolutely F*CKING HATE them with a passion because if their 'keyless fob' sensor is even slightly off or somewhat low on batteries, it won't let you start the car. My wife's car has that, and it's had to have batteries changed constantly. I hate the idea that if the button doesn't work, you can't even start your engine. At least with a key, if it doesn't start, there's usually a way to get it going without having to call for a tow.

My mom has had similar issues with her newer car. It's frustrating but at least there are fixes.

 

[Oddish]

It does bear thinking. Someone puts a virus online, hacks every driverless car: the day before Thanksgiving (heavy traffic, lots of cars with multiple passengers) at 3:45 pm, accelerate to maximum speed then aim at nearest obstacle. When the virus goes active, carnage.