When did the Janeway hatred truly start to coalesce?

It's kind of embarrassing how Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor are pretty much the only two characters parroted by those who express disapproval with modern female action heroes.

 

And that's less to do with liking them, and more because they know those two are considered untouchable by too many and it would be suicide to criticize them.

 

Not likely, Ellen Ripley was a character who earned every obstacle she faced, and there were elements about her which most people who have common sense can relate to. Ripley made mistakes in her journey and over came them, plus she didn't rely on an establish character (Michael Burnham related to Spock) to get brown points for the audience to like her. She was a well written and three dimensional woman... a character I highly respect. Unlike the GOaT.

 

She was well written and 3D over the course of several movies. Not in the first one, where she turned out to be right in all her complaints and all the men looked inferior next to her. Too many would complain that Dallas was killed to give Ripley the spotlight for her to last long enough to become more of a character.

Having new characters be related to other established ones is a long-standing thing in storytelling, no point in getting mad as Discovery about it. Simply put, the "fans" have simply become more vicious and angry since the 90s, somehow.

 

Personally, I thought Ripley was pretty well written in the first movie. Had they gone by the book, like she was doing, the xenomorph would not have gotten aboard.

I completely understand Dallas wanting to save his crewman, but doing so was risking ALL his crew... and it did cost him his entire crew save Ripley. (Though Ash was the one who was directly responsible for their deaths, since he actually opened the airlock. Of course, the machine gets people killed...)

I agree she got even better developed with each film, but she was not one dimensional in ALIEN.


This might be a bit off topic, but I have heard that horror movies put women in a bad light. And while I agree that there are a lot of female characters that come off badly, almost an equal amount of them are the heroes. FRIDAY THE 13TH, A NIGHTMARE ON ELM STREET, HALLOWEEN, THE TEXAS CHAINSAW MASSACRE, WRONG TURN, most of all their sequels, and on and on... who's the last survivor/victor? A female character, who through cunning, intelligence, or just simply taking advantage of the right circumstance at the right time, comes out as the champion.

If anything, the horror genre actually makes women look pretty damn smart.

 

And the movie "The descent" had only woman in It and was a great movie.

 

Very true, I discovered some more interesting characters, Sidney Prescott in the Scream series is an incredible heroine who's very smart and overcame the obstacles thrown at her. I find those characters you 2 have mentioned are far more interesting than a Rey Palpatine, Michael Burnham, and the GOAT Kathryn Janeway.

 

And the tv show "Continuum" have great female characters

 

Intergalactic. %90 women. British.



The OA, weird, lost interest.

Season 2 of the Boys finished with three heroines beating the shit of a female Nazi supervillain.

The Chilling Adventures Sabrina. Titular character.

Stranger Things. 11 is practically Mute, and she steals the show.

West World. Two very different Robot women trying to establish family, that does not exactly exist.

The Magicians. The boy hero lead died, and a girl hero lead picked up the Torch.

Game of Thrones. Daenerys vs. Sersi.

Terminator The Sarah Connor Chronicles. More Sersi.

Undone. Rosa Salazar. Time travel.



Watchmen. This is the 80s it-girl from 227? Never really noticed the parallel with Wanda Vision. Jon isn't really a Robot.

 

My brother had a HUGE crush on Nicole de Boer for her role on Sci-Fi, it's not what you think, meaning "The SCI-FI Channel" when they brought in Canadian programs. One of those shows was titled "Mission Genesis" it's real title was called "Deep Water Black" where de Boer played a teenager awaken from cryogenic sleep aboard a spaceship and had lost memories of her and the crew's history. Her character Yuna, along with 3 other girls were very clever minded women. I believe that show was airing during the era of the GoAT, I had zero problems with their characters because within their lack of memories they displayed flaws which they had to overcome.

I mean it was the era where we had the discovery of Ro Laren and even better Major Kira Nerys, an incredible character who I value.

 

I haven't watched that Canadian series so I won't comment on it. But I actually like Nicole DeBoer as Ezri Dax.

Ro Laren and Kira Nerys are great characters. Ro Laren is one of my favorite TNG characters and I wish that she would have been in more episodes and also that she would have showed up in DS9. Kira is No: 3 on my Ds9 favorite list after Garak and Quark. definitely one of my all-time favorites.

I actually like Janeway, at least in the first three seasons, even if there were some episodes where she over-reacted. Later on she was ruined by bad writing but so was the other Voyager characters as well.

By the way, what is GOAT? I can understand that it doesn't mean "goat" as such but what does it stand for?

 

Greatest Of All Time.

Also known as the Chuck Norris of Star Trek.

 

Well, while I really like Janeway as a character, she fell far shy of her potential, given the quality of the actress playing her. Given that Voyager's writers couldn't count to 38 and its showrunners didn't even know that an ensign is supposed to make lieutenant, the explanation is easy to find.

 

Yeah, because that show was an ensemble with no set leader. Just a YA show essentially. None of them were a designated "Captain".

Plus being a bunch of sexy 20-somethings helped.

 

Sir, you are absolutely right.

 

The rest of the series.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEB5CE5E6C50AD441

Nicole is Cute, but Gordon Michael Woolvett is awesome.

 

OK, thanks.

I did understand that it had something to do with an over-rated character but couldn't get the letters together.

I can agree that Kathryn Janeway was inconsistently written, at least in the later half of the series.

I'm not going to start any "anti-Seven" rant here, I made peace with that character a long time ago and I must admit that some of my criticizm to the character was wrong and over-reacting from my side.

But personally I think that GOAT and what it stands for fits Seven Of Nine more than Janeway when it comes to Voyager and Star Trek related items.

 

Seven was at least allowed to have weaknesses. Sometimes it seemed like the only time Janeway was wrong was when she thought she was wrong, but she wasn't.

Hmmm, I should add that to the "Chuck" topic...

 

I wonder whether the show progressed any differently in the timeline where Lessing died.