When did the Janeway hatred truly start to coalesce?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Ragitsu, Nov 17, 2021.

  1. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2017
    Agreed. Riker and Pulaski were violated. Their DNA was taken from them without permission. Worse, it was taken after they said no TWICE. It was their genetic material, and it was their right to vaporize it. They were not fully formed yet. Not murder in the least.

    Ibudan cloned himself for the express purpose of killing him to frame Odo. THAT was murder simply because it was already fully grown and sentient. Premeditated, actually, because he planned to kill him.
     
    jackoverfull, Ragitsu and DonIago like this.
  2. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Stop. Hemmer time! Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2001
    Location:
    UK
    I think Pulaski/Jones/Mulhall were all actually Mudd androids.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2022
  3. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    Pulaski was the mother of a clone race of perfect humans in Unnatural Selection.

    Sounds like something a Robot would do.
     
    Seven of Five likes this.
  4. Akiraprise

    Akiraprise Vice Admiral Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2004
    Location:
    Hell's North Pole
    If you don't have access just go to your account preferences and click the opt in to TNZ button. TNZ isn't for everyone. The normal rules that apply here are relaxed in that forum, you may take a little heat at times, but you'll get your debate. :lol:
     
    Therin of Andor likes this.
  5. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    Except of course when the #crew members retrieved/ time invested waiting ratio drops to 0.5 crew members/week, or below. Say, going 2 weeks further back in time to retrieve Neelix, or going 4 weeks further back in time to retrieve Neelix AND Lt. Carey obviously isn't worth her extra time.
     
  6. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2020
    I'll give you Carey, his character deserved way better. But Neelix was the only Voyager character who found a satisfying resolution within the series proper; I wouldn't take that away from him.
     
    jackoverfull and Farscape One like this.
  7. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    Yeah, I don't know why anyone would think Neelix needed rescuing at the end, but Carey was inexplicable.
     
    jackoverfull likes this.
  8. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    OK, I'll admit just threw Neelix in for good measure, I agree he didn't need to be saved (unless it would have turned out that, as his colony wasn't very far from a major center of Borg activity, his colony was assimilated soon afterward, even if only during the Borg rebuilding efforts of that Transwarp hub because they needed more drones or something).

    Even so, Carey's death is jarring. Especially since Janeway also contends in that episode that 'the urge to explore can't justify the loss of lives, whether it's millions or just one.' So all in all, for Janeway, apparently,
    "My time > loss of crew members > justification to explore".

    Without irony though, I think it shows that she can live with the loss of a figure like Carey, but not the ones in her 'inner circle', the likes of Seven, Chakotay or Tuvok. Which perhaps is a flaw in her character, but also an understandably human trait.
     
  9. dupersuper

    dupersuper Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2020
    Which is why I hate the Moriarty and Fair /haven episodes: they completely ruin the holodeck. It's either a guilt free video game where Picard can gun some one down as Dixon Hill, Yar can karate kick a sparring partner, Worf can kill every one in a village, Bashir and O'Brien can fight the Alamo, every one can get their Vulcan Love Slave on, etc., etc., or it's a factory for living beings. It can't be both.
     
    Ray Hardgrit, Oddish and Ragitsu like this.
  10. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2021
    ARMUS: An interesting notion which I do not share.

    :eek:

    He's like The Lorax...only, he speaks for the sociopaths.
     
  11. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2020
    Given that ship's computers are canonically non-sentient, it doesn't make sense that dozens and possibly hundreds of sentient beings could be stored within their memory banks.

    The Doctor could be a special case due to his mobile emitter, but other holograms should be what dupersuper suggested: guilt-free playthings. If you want to rampage through Fair Haven with a flamethrower (and I expect a lot of people on this board would), it should be no problem.
     
    dupersuper likes this.
  12. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    ^I'll take "Things we would have seen if Voyager had been given an eighth season" for $500, Alex.
     
    dupersuper likes this.
  13. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2020
    Jeopardy doesn't have $500 clues anymore. :razz:
     
    DonIago likes this.
  14. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2017
    Thank you, inflation...
     
  15. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2021
    His intelligence was evolving prior to his liberation. Also, I don't recall that piece of technology allowing him to think differently.
     
  16. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2020
    But it could have hit a wall when he reached the limit on how far a hologram can evolve. Starfleet could have established that limit after Moriarty was created, not wanting to accidentally produce any more like him.

    In the 29th century, where holographic life is common and accepted, mobile emitters don't have that failsafe. Acquiring one allows the EMH to continue his growth.
     
  17. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2020
    Location:
    Italy
    This is pure speculation with no evidence in the series, not even remotely implied.
     
    Ragitsu likes this.
  18. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2020
    Janeway hate? Or hologram limitations? Or something else?
     
  19. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    A hologram runs for six to 12 years and it is sapient.

    A hologram runs for 3 hours it is non sapient.

    So it's not murder to run a hologram for 5 years, and 11 moths, and then turn it off and delete its programming and history.

    Quintisentially the abortion argument.

    It's the abortion
     
  20. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    The aliens from living witness said that a season 4 Doctor was aware enough to answer for the heinous crimes of Captain Janeway... When were they from?

    31st century.

    Shit.

    The Doctor vs. Michael Burnham.

    Meanwhile at the dawn of an alt 25th century, the Doctor was legally allowed to marry a human being.

    At the climax of the trial about the doctors book, was he aware enough to hold publishing rights, the judge decided that the doctor was aware enough to have publishing rights, but he, the judge, was unwilling to declare the Doctor human rights, because that would fuck up the slave labour that was underpinning the Federation currently, and society would fall apart.

    The Doctor is more dangerous to the Federation than a fleet of Dommion capital ships.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2022