When did the Janeway hatred truly start to coalesce?

AFAIK, they weren't altered by a glitch that removed their perception filters...which is apparently enough to create Moriarty-lites.

 

Good point. But, neither was Frannie. Janeway deleted her before that particular incident occured.

 

Her pre-consciousness death is a-okay then?

 

Who's to say the Goddess of Empathy wouldn't have achieved sentience eventually, especially with Barclay regularly tweaking her subroutines?

Unlike Trek, which goes by subjective standards, I tend to judge objectively. Objectively, deleting non-sentient holodeck characters is an acceptable use of the facility, no matter how malevolent the look on your face when you do it.

A similar example is the act of killing one's own clone: objectively, either Ibudan was guiltless or Riker was as much a murderer as he was.

 

Given how easy locating the path to sentience/sapience seems to be (e.g., programming via an advanced alien species, asking the computer for a challenge, leaving the hologram running continuously, removing the perception filters, et cetera)...I'm no longer so certain.

 

It could be that it's legal to kill your clone if it's made without your consent. Riker and Pulaski were arguably raped, while Ibudan cloned himself.

 

I think this is more like getting an abortion to get rid of the offspring of your rapist…which by many is of course considered a sensible thing while others have a different opinion on the matter.

Of course the big differences between Ibudan and Riker and Pulaski are that 1) the latter never gave consent to be cloned; 2) their clones were never truly “born”, they were still developing and never woke up.

So, in a way, they pretty much had an abortion. And yea, I get the whole episode is morally complicated, personally I found them killing their clones much more disturbing than a raped woman getting an abortion, although I can’t really pinpoint why, it just struck me as very wrong. Also the reasoning they gave, “not being unique any longer”, rang empty to me (not to mention ironic in the case of Riker, who would later find out to have a transporter double anyway).

 

It also seems very convenient that their cloning methods produced adult specimens. I think that if Riker had killed a couple of infants, we wouldn't be judging him with the same tolerance.

Also, what is the point of growing adult-size clones? Once they're "born", you're basically stuck with a grown adult who can't walk, talk, or feed themself. And, their lifespan is reduced as well.

 

This could be as simple as a matter of jurisdiction: Bajoran versus Federation.

Edit: Can we nip the abortion talk in the bud this time? I'd rather not return to seclusion until it dies down and fades away.

 

But Riker was not on Federation property. He was on Mariposa, and they certainly considered his actions to be murder. Not only was he destroying the clones, he was (in their eyes) sentencing their civilization to oblivion.

 

Pretty smart or sneaky of those computer programers to know what many fans would do and go 'No No No. Their will be none of that. You got to deal with him.

 

You weren't allowed to kill any friendly, though. If you did, they had a shot of your character in the brig, being visited by a random canon character, or someone from your team. Harry might express disappointment at not being able to perform a concert with you, Neelix would bring you a kind of gross meal, Janeway would say she served with your dad and he'd be super disappointed.

Again, if your version of the game included holomatch, you could slaughter Neelix at will. With a personal photon torpedo launcher if you wanted.

 

The first two clones would not have been for being people.

They needed a stable genetic sample to start from before degradation drift built up.

The scraping they collected to build the first clones was not enough to make a million babies.

But they could make a millions babies from those two adult clones...

 

AFAIK all versions of EF included holomatch.

very good observation!

 

The PS2 version did not.

 

Pretty sure it's off-limits here anyway. All of the best debate topics are.

 

ah! Didn’t know this.

 

Is Pulaski a clone of Anne Mulhall from TOS or Miranda Jones from TOS?

If they knew Pulaski was already a clone or even a clone of a clone, they would hardly have selected this particular woman to mother generations of offspring.

Also..

Logans Run/Blade Runner.

If the Clones come out of the oven as adults, and then only live for 3 to 5 years until there's a natural expiration or a carousel/Soylent Green situation event, then given a 5 year long Generation. Rather than a thirty year generation, of course their clones are experiencing dangerous degrees of genetic drift after only a hundred years.

Idealized perfection mandated by law.

No youth or senior imperfections allowed.

 

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