What's Special About DS9?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by Spot's Meow, May 17, 2019.

  1. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think to be thorough and fair, we can't stop at just asking which series had the most time travel episodes. There should be several criteria that show how time travel is used. For instance, if we were to ask if time travel resolved the problem posed by the episode, DS9 might not come out ahead.

    PAST TENSE, PART I and II: No, Sisko must replicate conditions of Bell Riots.
    VISIONARY: Yes, O'Brien obtains information from the present.
    THE VISITOR: Yes, brings characters back to the accident.
    LITTLE GREEN MEN: Maybe, escaping captivity and leaving planet were sufficient.
    TRIALS AND TRIBBLE-ATIONS: No, crew had to stop assassination of Kirk.
    CHILDREN OF TIME: No, the time travelling event was nullified.
    WRONGS DARKER … : No, Kira was the cause of the problem (attempted assassination),which she resolves herself.
    TIME'S ORPHAN: Yes, Molly encounters younger self.
    THE SOUND OF HER VOICE: No, character is already dead.

    As many as four of the nine episodes needed time travel in order to resolve the conflict. Compare that to Enterprise, where only 2-3 of the 14 episodes made time travel the tool for resolution: Shockwave, Twilight, and maybe Carpenter Street.

    I think other questions could be asked to get more into which series used, or abused, time travel.
     
  2. Farscape One

    Farscape One Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I still maintain DS9 used and abused it the least. There were 3 full seasons that didn't have a single time travel story... 1, 2, and 7.
     
  3. Armus

    Armus Commodore Commodore

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    Ds9 had some of the best time travel episodes since TOS. They were more ambitious stories, on the whole, than TNG. DS9 overdid mirror universe episodes more than time travel.
     
  4. at Quark's

    at Quark's Commodore Commodore

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    I think the difference with TNG is too small to be significant. 11 (with 2 barely qualifying) vs 10 (with 1 barely qualifying) according to your own counts - had you used slightly stricter standards both would come up on 9, and standards are arbitrary anyway. For example, why didn't you include Accession - 22nd century Bajoran time travels to 24th century and believes he is the Emissary (and returns to the 22nd century at the end)?

    I think you can say though that TNG and DS9 used it less than all the other series,
    if we take into account that TOS ran only for 3 years and ENT for 4 years, and you compensate the numbers for that you get the following ranking:

    1 DS9 (5.7 per 100)
    2 TNG (6.2 per 100)
    3 TOS (7.6 per 100)
    4 VOY ( 9.3 per 100)
    5 ENT ( 14.3 per 100)

    Considered this way, things look a bit different. TOS is middle of the road, in VOY the problem gets worse, but the only series that really goes out of the ballpark regarding "time travel episode density" is Enterprise.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2019
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  5. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Admiral

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    I noticed that you didn't put "Non-Sequitur" and "Living Witness" among the time travel episodes. In the case of "Non-Sequitur", there is definitely time manipulation as the present is different. If the present is different then it means that something has been changed in the past. So it involves time travel even if it is indirectly. I mean it's at least as much of a time travel story as the one with Rassmusen. "Living Witness" is situated in the future but it's not clear if it's the regular timeline or an alternate one.
     
  6. at Quark's

    at Quark's Commodore Commodore

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    ? I didn't create those lists in the first place - I merely commented on them.

    And I agree, there's a lot of room for discussion as to what constitutes a time travel episode. You could also argue the other way around, for example, that Year of Hell isn't a time travel episode, even though manipulation of the timeline occurs constantly. There are going to be a lot of such "borderline" cases, in my view.
     
  7. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The time travel element was baked into the premise, no? From that perspective, there should have been more time travel. Indeed, our heroes themselves don't do most of the time traveling.
     
  8. Farscape One

    Farscape One Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    "LIVING WITNESS"... time travel was not involved at all.

    "NON SEQUITUR"... I suppose this one could be added, though it's more an alternate universe story.


    Regarding "ACCESSION", good point about Akorem. So that can be added. Even adding that, still not abused as much. DS9 found really clever ways using time, and they didn't feel overused, particularly compared to VOYAGER and ENTERPRISE.
     
  9. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Things Past is for all intents and purposes, a time travel episode, as in; The crew find themselves in the past. Thus it would be on the bulletin board for that category for that year.

    The point isn't whether or not one show had 3 more time travel episodes than another, but that all the shows cover a certain number of episodes each year to make it to 26.

    I also wouldn't count something like Past Tense as two time travel episodes. It's a single story. Likewise with Future's End, or Time's Arrow(or any other two-parters that involve time travel)

    Mirror Universe was another one I mentioned that became sort of an annual routine, like a Christmas episode.

    There's a routine to the non-main storyline character focus episodes too, like "Kira's past." Kira either gets relationship episodes, or they explore her Bajoran background. She'll get a call from some long lost friend from the resistance, go pick up pieces, then learn some revelation about the occupation.

    Dax often gets this treatment too, where stories focused on her are about the symbiot, or her Klingon proclivities.
     
  10. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Will we then add Inner Light to the list?
     
  11. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    In some ways it kind of is, but I don't think it would fall under time travel on the bulletin board.

    Things Past is a way to get the crew back to Terok Nor. In another episode they use flashbacks. In this one, they functionally go there.
     
  12. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Admiral

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    How about Hard Time?
     
  13. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Hard Time is like the Inner Light. I don't have a category for these kinds of episodes, and can't think of very many of them.
     
  14. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Admiral

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    Quiz: What series includes the most holodeck/holosuite episodes?

    TNG, DS9 or Voyager, though even ENT has three episodes that could qualify as holodeck ep.
     
  15. Farscape One

    Farscape One Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think VOYAGER does, but barely more than TNG.
     
  16. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    All in your mind episodes, like the one where Riker keeps breaking mirrors or Voyager's clown or Jake says the n-word or Kirk plays cowboy?. It's seems like it should be a category.
     
  17. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Admiral

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    How about Body Parts, where we see Quark's dream? How about the Prophet episodes, like Favor The Bold or Image In The Sand?

    How about Field Of Fire where Ezri is seeing her co-host as if he was a real person and has nightmares about the murder?
     
  18. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I would assume Voyager, but they have a holographic main character. If you were to take away episodes that focus on both the holodeck and the EMH, I'm guessing each show would average about one per season.

    Was he really there? Trill are able to project the spirit of their former lives onto other people. Maybe they have some telepathic magic powers.
     
  19. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Admiral

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    You're missing the point. The question is: How do we classify such episodes?
     
  20. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, on the bulletin board it would be a "The lives of Dax" episode. The genre of this one is a mystery/thriller.