What's Special About DS9?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by Spot's Meow, May 17, 2019.

  1. Kilana2

    Kilana2 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2015
    Location:
    Kilana2
    I like that Jake doesn't follow into his father's footsteps regarding a Starfleet career. Contrary to the Kirk family, Janeway, Paris etc. The Ferengi are portrayed different than in TNG, became more complex, interesting, funny and shrewd. Surprising character developments pertained to Nog and Damar. The death of characters like Ziyal felt real and I suffered with some of the characters: Kira, her mother and her brothers. Sisko and the loss of Jennifer. Weyoun 6' death in Odo's arms. Worf mourning for Jadzia.......
     
    FanST and Nyotarules like this.
  2. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2001
    Location:
    Great Britain
    Whilst some will say the static location of DSN was a weakness, the opposite is more true. The static location allowed it to develop various races in more depth.
    The O'Brien's were fairly functional as well.
     
    Armus, Greg Cox and Kilana2 like this.
  3. Qonundrum

    Qonundrum Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Location:
    The clinic located by the Q Continuum
    I felt DS9 had people who were a blend of Roddenberry's idealism for TNG humans, while using other species as metaphor for 20th (or even 23rd century TOS-style) human emotional conditions.

    DS9 was not afraid to stretch boundaries for creative and dramatic appeal, especially as what took place might not have made Gene happy. Gene was more about the ideas rather than how to make it work in a more complex setting - which is good, and fun, to a point. But DS9's makers were clearly mindful of his ideals while integrating what really is more realism, more gravitas. Not that TNG (or TOS) lacked it but DS9 definitely goes an extra mile (or maybe 5,878,625,000,000 of them). They respected Gene while doing more with the franchise, which is never an easy task. Indeed, the Romulans were probably the best treated in DS9 because their chess game tactics, which Picard loved to sigh in exasperation over, were limited by TNG. TNG could never do any dealings with Romulans and ending up with a commander screaming "IT'S A FAKE!!!!!!!!!" Picard would never allow it, "The Pegasus" being a prime example of showcasing both Picard's strengths and what potential DS9 could offer due to shades of gray captains like Pressman. (Indeed, not since season 2 TNG would any season take such layered/complex situations or showing space is a mysterious and dangerous place, until season 7... "Pegasus" was probably whetting the appetite and buttering the proverbial bread to pique interest in the shiny new spinoff, something I hadn't fathomed at the time...)

    TNG theorized humans evolved a different way, even if it only took 'em less than 100 years to get there - which is arguably remarkable in of itself but not necessarily unrealistic and DSC missed a big opportunity in terms of doing an exploration of this gap as that's a more interesting gap to fill than to

    make this glossy crew of young kids (with grumpy old grandpa captain who would have been more interesting if he wasn't the mirror universe evil counterpart moohahaha in a cheap ratings grab that had scared away enough long-terms fans by that point and made little narrative sense to reveal so soon in the show's run) encounter several of TOS and allegedly one or more TNG baddies and try to retcon them as DSC's own "first in canon" claim (while trampling all over established continuity, which TNG almost took pride along with painstaking care to create and without upending TOS in the process. But that's a different time, especially as post-1996 Trek did upend TNG after a while, arguably starting with the Borg...)

    Then again, the mirror universe people hopscotching back and forth and molding section 31 - now there's an idea. Can it sustain a full multi-year series? Or maybe just a miniseries? Assuming DSC didn't play with this already, it did play with a lot of fanservice without any strong worldbuilding... maybe season 2's better episodes turn the show around, the premiere and Spock murdering his shrinks - doesn't matter much what the resolution is unless a new fan hasn't seen TOS or anything before... I never really cared how it was resolved, if it was resolved other than making every (un)resolved event classified (a la "The Menagerie" regarding Talos IV, which is almost as clever as it is unoriginal but it's another thing DSC upended to claim as its own, which stuck out in too many peoples' minds since season one.)

    They are real people, just in a theoretical future setting. It is not the most realistic (TOS did the "what kind of people are we?" shtick better than TNG at times - ask Anan 7, hehe), but TNG was made 20 years after TOS - which took human evolution in another way as well as trying to become its own show and not cling on to TOS at every turn - and by the mid-80s, Roddenberry was all over the map with ideas for TNG... or even by 1979 in some ways...
     
    Armus likes this.
  4. kkt

    kkt Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2014
    Location:
    Seattle
    I am somewhere in between: I think Nana Visitor did a terrific job and Kira is my favorite of the regulars. It made it a much stronger show, with more possibilities for drama, to have the station's first officer be in the Bajoran militia instead of Starfleet, and Michelle Forbes wouldn't have done that. It's been a while since I watched TNG, but as far as I remember Ro had lots of personal issues which made her unsuitable for being a senior officer. Kira did tend to lose her temper and yell, but she did her job and only kicked a little bit at Sisko's orders. However, "Best Character Ever", I dunno. Garak is pretty hard to beat.
     
    FanST, Bry_Sinclair and Bad Thoughts like this.
  5. Grendelsbayne

    Grendelsbayne Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2013
    Location:
    Netherlands
    I thought Nana Visitor did a great job and Michelle Forbes did a great job and I wish we could've had them both as regulars. But, while I would not have wanted to lose Kira even for Ro, I do like Ro as a character better than Kira. She's just less abrasive. (And I like a number of other DS9 characters better than Ro).
     
  6. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Location:
    Bad Thoughts
    MIchelle Forbes is now the better actress. Her body of work from the last fifteen years has been impressive, but if I am being honest, the films she made before them show rather dry acting and lackluster skills. I really don't know how much she would have added to DS9. On the other hand, Kira Nerys was a better character than Ro Laren. Kira was not only more volatile, especially in the earlier seasons, but it also feels like the same range of narratives would not have been available if Ro were in her place. I don't think Ro helping Damar would have had as lmuch dramatic tension, nor do I realty see her having the confidence of Odo from the start of the series.
     
  7. Farscape One

    Farscape One Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2017
    What's special about DS9?

    I could into a VERY long and detailed post... or essay... on why I think DS9 is special and the best series of the feanchise. But a lot of my feelings can be summed up in a couple sentences.

    From the start, it felt like a real, lived in place, and the characters were the most real characters. Every... single... one.

    Having an excellent cast with a LOT of theater background between them, sets that were beautifully designed, and a writing staff that played to the actors' strengths were among other secondary reasons why DS9 is and will always be my favorite STAR TREK series.

    I think the better question is, "What is NOT special about DEEP SPACE NINE?"

    The answer... is nothing. It was an almost magical feat that everything came together like it did. It's going to be near impossible to recapture that level of magic again.
     
  8. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    Location:
    Discofan
    I agree that there are in fact many things that are special about DS9. No alien of the week/anomaly of the week/alien+anomaly of the week routine... I mean, that's like 99 percent of Voyager's episodes!!!

    No stories strictly focused on three main characters with the occasional intervention of a recurring one during the episode. No (there's got to be a way, make it so) routine!

    That's some refreshing changes.

    Of course, it's nothing compared to Disco but that's another story altogether.
     
  9. BillJ

    BillJ Moderate Democrat Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2001
    Location:
    BillJ
    You may want to revisit DS9. It did its share of alien/anomaly of the week stories. Which I think helps the show. It was able to do more than one thing at a time. I'd desperately love for Discovery to have been done half as competently as DS9.
     
    Bry_Sinclair and Armus like this.
  10. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    Location:
    Discofan
    I was speaking of a routine. I didn't say that they completely avoided these paradigms, just that they didn't resort to them (almost) all the time like Voyager but also to a lesser degree TNG. For TOS it was weird/powerful alien of the week, alternating with weird planet of the week (like the gangster planet for example), with once in a while an episode that didn't belong to either one of these categories.
     
    Bad Thoughts likes this.
  11. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2017
    Location:
    Prax
    They definitely had a routine. There must have been a bulletin board in the writers room with 1 card on it marked "Mirror Universe," 1 card marked "holosuite," 2 cards on it marked "Time Travel," 2 cards on it marked "Kira's past," 2 cards marked "Klingon," 3 cards marked "Ferengi," and so on, and so forth. Then, throughout each season, the cards would be shifted over to a "used" column as the episodes were used up, and at the start of the next season, all the cards would be shifted back into the "not used" column.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
  12. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    Location:
    Discofan
    With so many categories you can no longer talk of a routine. I mean for example I think they had like five time travel stories for the entire series and each was very different from the others. The Mirror stories... I could have done without. The worst one was beneath everything and the best one was only slightly above average for the series.
     
  13. Armus

    Armus Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2003
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    DS9 did a quite a few episodes that TNG or TOS could have done, such as "Past Tense", which would have worked well on either series. Avery Brooks would have been great in TOS.

    A good episode that showcases DS9's unique backstory and setting would be an episode like "Cardassians", the episode which explores the story of Cardassian orphans left on Bajor. It works as a standalone story and takes advantage of DS9's uniqueness.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
    FanST likes this.
  14. kkt

    kkt Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2014
    Location:
    Seattle
    Avery Brooks would have been great in TOS, but it wouldn't have happened. Some local stations were pretty upset when there was an African-American on the bridge, let alone in command.
     
  15. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2017
    Location:
    Prax
    I would say at least 8 or 9. My point is, there's a routine to the types of stories done each year, and the number of them. It's really no different with the other series. When you have to make 26 episodes each year, that's a large order to fill.
     
  16. Farscape One

    Farscape One Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2017
    DS9 time travel...

    PAST TENSE, PART I and II
    VISIONARY
    THE VISITOR
    LITTLE GREEN MEN
    TRIALS AND TRIBBLE-ATIONS
    CHILDREN OF TIME
    TIME'S ORPHAN
    THE SOUND OF HER VOICE (Only due to the twist of the signal.)

    That's 9 episodes, and one if them I barely count due to signal. In comparison with other series...

    TOS...
    THE NAKED TIME
    TOMORROW IS YESTERDAY
    THE CITY ON THE EDGE OF FOREVER
    ASSIGNMENT: EARTH
    WINK OF AN EYE (Time is extremely slow.)
    ALL OUR YESTERDAYS

    That's 6 episodes, with one barely qualifying.

    TNG...
    We'll Always Have Paris
    Time Squared
    Yesterday's Enterprise
    Captain's Holiday
    (The Vorgons.)
    A Matter Of Time (Rasmussen)
    Cause And Effect
    Time's Arrow, Parts I and II
    Timescape
    All Good Things...


    11 episodes, with two barely qualifiying.

    VOYAGER...
    PARALLAX (Time delayed reflection and the image and distress call of Voyager trapped in the beginning.)
    TIME AND AGAIN
    EYE OF THE NEEDLE
    (Romulan is beamed into their present.)
    FUTURE'S END, I and II
    BEFORE AND AFTER
    YEAR OF HELL, I and II
    TIMELESS
    GRAVITY (Large time differential on that planet.)
    RELATIVITY
    BLINK OF AN EYE
    FURY
    SHATTERED
    ENDGAME

    That's 16 episodes, with only two that I barely count.

    ENTERPRISE...
    BROKEN BOW
    COLD FRONT
    SHOCKWAVE, I and II
    FUTURE TENSE
    THE EXPANSE (Future Guy appears.)
    TWILIGHT
    CARPENTER STREET
    THE COUNCIL (Sphere Builders)
    COUNTDOWN (Sphere Builders)
    ZERO HOUR
    STORM FRONT, I and II

    14 episodes, with 3 I barely count.

    Honestly, DS9 did the least time travel out of all except the original series.
     
  17. at Quark's

    at Quark's Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    ^I would call Wrongs darker than death or night also a time travel episode. After all it uses the same "orb of time" as Trials and tribble-ations does. Since the latter involves genuine time travel, I'll have to assume Kira's is also genuine, bringing the total to 10 at least. There may be more.

    Also, the wormhole aliens that apparently exist out of time create more temporal or causality paradoxes, even if it doesn't mean outright time travel for Our Heroes. For example, take Sarah, was she sent to earth "after" or "before" the aliens met Sisko for the first time?
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2019
  18. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2017
    Location:
    Prax
    And "Things past"

    I don't think Wink of an Eye, Blink of an eye, or Gravity qualify as time travel episodes.
     
    Armus likes this.
  19. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Location:
    Bad Thoughts
    Things Past takes place in Odo's mind, IIANM.
     
  20. Farscape One

    Farscape One Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2017
    Yes to "WRONGS...", it does bring it to 10 episodes, and that's still only due to grudgingly adding the twist of "THE SOUND OF HER VOICE".

    "THINGS PAST" is not a time travel episode. It took place in Odo's head.

    As to the others, I see your point and I only added because time was a gimmick used. But ecen if you taje out those episodes, DS9 still did it less than everyone except TOS.

    (Coincidence that Brannon Braga was a producer for each of the others? I think not.)