what's 'canon' in the Kelvin timeline? and does it matter?

[Tenacity]

Canon is whatever people who own the property say it is

The people who own the property can say anything they want is canon, or isn't canon. I understand that Roddenberry insisted that Star Trek: The final Frontier wasn't canon.

If you and I used the term differently, oh well.

XCV330, is the animated episode Yesteryear canon? It was part of TAS and my understanding isn't considered canon for that reason, on the other hand parts of it have made their way in "canon" productions.

 

[XCV330]

The people who own the property can say anything they want is canon, or isn't canon. I understand that Roddenberry insisted that Star Trek: The final Frontier wasn't canon.

If you and I used the term differently, oh well.

XCV330, is the animated episode Yesteryear canon? It was part of TAS and my understanding isn't considered canon for that reason, on the other hand parts of it have made their way in "canon" productions.

CBS's position is pretty simple now. TAS is Canon. Roddenberry may not have agreed, but he's not really in a position to speak on the matter.

This doesn't mean that everything in TAS or any other part of Trek will perfectly sync up. There are continuity issues and always will be. There are going to be episodes that are simply never mentioned again. Whatever continuity they have won't matter if they simply don't revisit the subject matter. I doubt anyone will ever revisit, say: Code of Honor because it's an offensive mess, or all references to Sybok. If the Kzin ever get a revisit, rather than skirting issues with Niven's copyrights, perhaps they'll just go with the new name STO gave them (and those make it canon).

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Beyond co-writer Simon Pegg on the other hand, says the alternate timeline goes all the way back to the big bang.

He should have just said that the universe seen in the Kelvin movies was always different, even before Nero's arrival.

But implying that Nero changed the past as well as the future? Nuh uh. Not buying it. It simply doesn't make logical sense. It violates the rules of cause and effect. So I prefer to ignore it. (Besides, unless Pegg ends up writing a future Kelvinverse film, that theory won't make it onto the screen anyway, so effectively, it doesn't exist.)

 

[F. King Daniel]

But implying that Nero changed the past as well as the future? Nuh uh. Not buying it. It simply doesn't make logical sense. It violates the rules of cause and effect.

Since when has Trek ever cared about stuff like that? Up to and including Discovery season 2?

 

[pst]

He should have just said that the universe seen in the Kelvin movies was always different, even before Nero's arrival.

But implying that Nero changed the past as well as the future? Nuh uh. Not buying it. It simply doesn't make logical sense. It violates the rules of cause and effect. So I prefer to ignore it. (Besides, unless Pegg ends up writing a future Kelvinverse film, that theory won't make it onto the screen anyway, so effectively, it doesn't exist.)

i mean, in the limited way any star trek time travel makes sense, it kind of does...

if the black hole deposited the narada in the 2230s and the jellyfish in the 2250s even though both ships were pulled in only seconds apart, who's to say what other material or energy (or something) was thrown backwards though time along with those ships? and who's to say where and when they ended up?

 

[fireproof78]

He should have just said that the universe seen in the Kelvin movies was always different, even before Nero's arrival.

But implying that Nero changed the past as well as the future? Nuh uh. Not buying it. It simply doesn't make logical sense. It violates the rules of cause and effect. So I prefer to ignore it. (Besides, unless Pegg ends up writing a future Kelvinverse film, that theory won't make it onto the screen anyway, so effectively, it doesn't exist.)

Makes as much sense as an anomaly being bigger in the past than in the future.

Star Trek science at its finest folks.

 

[F. King Daniel]

i mean, in the limited way any star trek time travel makes sense, it kind of does...

if the black hole deposited the narada in the 2230s and the jellyfish in the 2250s even though both ships were pulled in only seconds apart, who's to say what other material or energy (or something) was thrown backwards though time along with those ships? and who's to say where and when they ended up?

I do recall fans theorizing the magic FTL supernova matter, which was drawn in first by minutes (remember, a few seconds was 25 years on the other side) could have emerged centuries before and disrupted all sorts.

 

[Tenacity]

Code of Honor because it's an offensive mess

I've never been offended by the idea of a planet with Black leadership.

But implying that Nero changed the past as well as the future?

I think Pegg meant that it wasn't a branch of the original universe, but rather it had always existed separately. Nero and Spock crossed over to this universe, Nero didn't create a branch

If not that, then Nero's interaction with the supernova did create a new universe, but again not a branch off of the original universe.

 

[Torrisrielle]

thanks for all the answers, I appreciate the feedback, I sometimes think in terms of 'the forest' but in the case of this Kelvin universe, I've been thinking about 'the trees', one of which in particular seems to be different or maybe it was directed to seem different in Trek '09, the articles I've read say Pike never met Jim Kirk before the younger man gets into that bar fight. The way Greenwood and Pine play that scene and I assume the way it was directed, strongly suggests a much longer acquaintance. What, for example, would Christopher Pike be doing in what is described as a 'dive', if it wasn't to find and half a talk with Jim Kirk? So, when I get to the point of writing fanfics in this universe, I would be far more likely to'say' that Pike has known Winona Kirk's son for quite a while. The question then is, what has their acquaintance been like? Is Pike just another authority figure for Jim to flip off? Is he to some extent a second father to Jim? I would go for 'Door #2' on that question. This theory imo is supported by their other scenes, and particularly in Into Darkness where moments after Pike dies, Kirk arrives and is badly shaken, or so it seems to me. So, as we used to say, its just my humble opinion [or maybe not so humble, lol] thanks again.

 

[Dukhat]

The people who own the property can say anything they want is canon, or isn't canon. I understand that Roddenberry insisted that Star Trek: The final Frontier wasn't canon.

When Roddenberry made that statement, he wasn't in charge of Star Trek. So it was only his opinion, not backed up by Paramount.

He should have just said that the universe seen in the Kelvin movies was always different, even before Nero's arrival.

I think Pegg meant that it wasn't a branch of the original universe, but rather it had always existed separately. Nero and Spock crossed over to this universe, Nero didn't create a branch

If not that, then Nero's interaction with the supernova did create a new universe, but again not a branch off of the original universe.

Then that would have defeated the whole purpose of why Spock Prime was in the film in the first place.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Then that would have defeated the whole purpose of why Spock Prime was in the film in the first place.

Not at all. Spock could still be from the prime universe we all know and love; he (and Nero) just emerged into a different one. Now THAT would have made sense.

 

[Dukhat]

Not at all. Spock could still be from the prime universe we all know and love; he (and Nero) just emerged into a different one. Now THAT would have made sense.

The whole point of the film was that the timeline that Spock Prime originally came from had changed. If it was already a different universe than the prime one, then that change wouldn't have mattered. Why would the audience care that some other universe's timeline changed?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The whole point of the film was that the timeline that Spock Prime originally came from had changed. If it was already a different universe than the prime one, then that change wouldn't have mattered. Why would the audience care that some other universe's timeline changed?

Even if you don't buy the explanation that the Kelvinverse was different all along...the prime timeline was NOT changed. A new timeline branched off from the old.

 

[Dukhat]

Even if you don't buy the explanation that the Kelvinverse was different all along...the prime timeline was NOT changed. A new timeline branched off from the old.

It changed for the characters in the film, who are the people that the audience is supposed to care about.

 

[XCV330]

I've never been offended by the idea of a planet with Black leadership.

If you don't know why Code of Honor is offensive, I can't help you.

 

[BillJ]

All live action material produced by Paramount and CBS is canon. Including "Code of Honor".

 

[F. King Daniel]

thanks for all the answers, I appreciate the feedback, I sometimes think in terms of 'the forest' but in the case of this Kelvin universe, I've been thinking about 'the trees', one of which in particular seems to be different or maybe it was directed to seem different in Trek '09, the articles I've read say Pike never met Jim Kirk before the younger man gets into that bar fight. The way Greenwood and Pine play that scene and I assume the way it was directed, strongly suggests a much longer acquaintance. What, for example, would Christopher Pike be doing in what is described as a 'dive', if it wasn't to find and half a talk with Jim Kirk? So, when I get to the point of writing fanfics in this universe, I would be far more likely to'say' that Pike has known Winona Kirk's son for quite a while. The question then is, what has their acquaintance been like? Is Pike just another authority figure for Jim to flip off? Is he to some extent a second father to Jim? I would go for 'Door #2' on that question. This theory imo is supported by their other scenes, and particularly in Into Darkness where moments after Pike dies, Kirk arrives and is badly shaken, or so it seems to me. So, as we used to say, its just my humble opinion [or maybe not so humble, lol] thanks again.

My impression was that Pike knew of Jim ("I couldn't believe it when the bartender told me who you were."), and of course knew of his parents from his Academy dissertation and George Kirk's legend (note the USS Kelvin models and salt shakers in the Shipyard Bar) but they hadn't met. Pike's a massive step up from Jim's asshole stepdad, so they end up with a father-son relationship.

I didn't think the bar was much of a dive (and it's obviously an officer/cadet hangout, hence Pike's presence), but maybe my standards are askew

 

[Tenacity]

If you don't know why Code of Honor is offensive, I can't help you.

Likely you couldn't. I visited this site for years prior to beginning to post, and read various opinions (other sites too) as to why CoH is considered "racist." From what I've read ...

I don't see the culture depicted as tribal.

I don't see the culture depicted as being specifically African. Architecture and clothing are middle-eastern.

I don't see the society depicted as being primitive or simple, Troi describes it as a highly structured society.

I don't think tapping sticks together is racist.

While they do have dueling (as do the Vulcans), I don't feel this makes them savages.

We've seen other episodes where all the guest star actors and extras were of a single race (but not black). While a mixture of races were sometimes cast as a planet's inhabitants, this was not the standard.

I don't see them as backwards. While not as technologically advanced as the 24th century Federation, they were able to beam to and from the Enterprise. From Picard wrestling a Ligonian at Starfleet Academy, it's possible they have warp drive. The fact Starfleet allows contact also suggests they have warp drive.

Lutan didn't kidnapped Yar owing to Black men want White woman, he kidnapped her as part of a plan to kill his wife. The story makes this clear.

I do think it was good idea to cast non-white actors as leaders and citizens, if anything this should have been done more often. Black, East-asian, Arab, others.

While the main cast isn't all white, you can't say the same about the majority of guest roles. I'm not suggesting quotas, but come on mix it up some.

 

[XCV330]

Likely you couldn't. I visited this site for years prior to beginning to post, and read various opinions (other sites too) as to why CoH is considered "racist." From what I've read ...

I don't see the culture depicted as tribal.

I don't see the culture depicted as being specifically African. Architecture and clothing are middle-eastern.

I don't see the society depicted as being primitive or simple, Troi describes it as a highly structured society.

I don't think tapping sticks together is racist.

While they do have dueling (as do the Vulcans), I don't feel this makes them savages.

We've seen other episodes where all the guest star actors and extras were of a single race (but not black). While a mixture of races were sometimes cast as a planet's inhabitants, this was not the standard.

I don't see them as backwards. While not as technologically advanced as the 24th century Federation, they were able to beam to and from the Enterprise. From Picard wrestling a Ligonian at Starfleet Academy, it's possible they have warp drive. The fact Starfleet allows contact also suggests they have warp drive.

Lutan didn't kidnapped Yar owing to Black men want White woman, he kidnapped her as part of a plan to kill his wife. The story makes this clear.

I do think it was good idea to cast non-white actors as leaders and citizens, if anything this should have been done more often. Black, East-asian, Arab, others.

While the main cast isn't all white, you can't say the same about the majority of guest roles. I'm not suggesting quotas, but come on mix it up some.

 

[Malaika]

He should have just said that the universe seen in the Kelvin movies was always different, even before Nero's arrival.

But implying that Nero changed the past as well as the future? Nuh uh. Not buying it. It simply doesn't make logical sense. It violates the rules of cause and effect. So I prefer to ignore it. (Besides, unless Pegg ends up writing a future Kelvinverse film, that theory won't make it onto the screen anyway, so effectively, it doesn't exist.)

Imo both are right, it depends on which pov you are looking at it all from.
From our pov as humans and the way time works for us, the way we perceive reality, yes Nero and Spock prime created this timeline through their actions because it's in that moment that we recognize the timeline as different from the other we know.
However, from the pov of the universe, so to speak, thus a far superior level, time isn't a linear thing: past, present and future all 'happen', meaning they exist, at the same time. So Pegg isn't wrong, this reality's past exists parallel to tos too and that could be slightly different as well. You can't have only one Spock who suddenly duplicates from one point only. .there are always two Spocks who have their own past, present and future.

There are theories about these things that seem to be the inspiration for the plot device of this trek. One of them for example believes that black holes are indeed points of access to different universes.
Discovery for example contradicts that but imo it is less contemporary and realistic than kelvin trek because of that. For one, the narrative playing oblivious over the fact a certain time traveler made it Au too, thus them pretending it's the same reality all the time that you can simply alter to your own liking, is going backwards imo.
SCI-FI fiction often decipts space and the universe according to a limited, human, pov that makes it seems things out there are smaller and more defined and limited than they are. It seems like the characters have the power to control something that cannot get controlled. Real space, however, must be much more terrifying and insanely infinite.