what's 'canon' in the Kelvin timeline? and does it matter?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by Torrisrielle, Jun 16, 2019.

  1. Torrisrielle

    Torrisrielle Cadet Newbie

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2019
    Location:
    west central OH
    I am not at all new to Star Trek, the original series began on NBC when I was quite young. And I have taken part in ST fandom for a very long time now. And I have found that especially in the TOS element of fandom there are fans who would not stand for any changes or alternative ideas at all in fanfics or fanart, etc -which considering what a breakthrough ST was for television always seemed odd to me. So now the Kelvin movies are here and I for one hope there will be more - so I'm wondering about a couple of things that were dreadfully important back in the day and I'm kinda sorta hoping are not dreadfully important now where this Kelvin universe is concerned. Here goes: when ST fans began to write 'slash' it set off a firestorm, mostly because it was still the late 60s and early 70s and it was still NOT OKAY to even talk about same-sex ANYTHING in public venues, and partly because a lot of that slash was horribly written, pwp [plot, what plot?] fanfiction.
    And then there's the question of some pretty sketchy backstories, which has been the norm in television writing forever and has allowed fans of just about everything to stretch their imaginations

    So I'm wondering: are same-gender relationships even a matter for anyone to take note of in the Kelvin universe? Or have these iterations of ST characters grown past those old prejudices?

    And I'm wondering, are fans of these movies and the fanfiction that's coming out of them going to hold a hard line to what little is seen on screen, or is there more latitude these days?

    In case you can't tell, I'm a writer, and I have some stories in mind, and I'd really like to know what Trek fans these days think about these questions, just for starters. thanks much for any answers.
     
  2. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    There isn't a separate Kelvinverse 'canon'. Anthing that aired onscreen is 'canon'. I believe you may be thinking of continuity?

    The Kelvinverse is merely one of any number of alternate timelines we've seen portrayed in Trek, such as the three shown in AGT (alternately Q's/Picard's hallucinations), the Mirror Universe(s), the "Borg Assimilate Earth" timeline shown very briefly in ST:FC, and IIRC at least 283,000 alternate timelines shown in "Parallels".
     
    Torrisrielle likes this.
  3. XCV330

    XCV330 A Being of Pure Caffeine Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2017
    Location:
    jippers on a beach somewhere
    And the Yesterday's Enterprise timeline, which might have been more of a tangental universe that subsequently ceased to exist.
     
  4. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2016
    Season one of Discovery handled it's same sex relationship surprising well.

    In the case of the last Abrams-verse movie's same sex "relationship." it was so incredible thin that if I didn't know in advance where it was going to be I likely would have missed it.

    Two men hug and hold hands, wow how "gay."
    Pretty obvious that all parties DON'T use the term canon the same. Canon and continuity have become interchangeable?
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
    Torrisrielle likes this.
  5. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    Well, AFAIK we have no way of knowing whether the alternate timelines we've witnessed collapsed or not. :)
     
    Torrisrielle likes this.
  6. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2016
    For all we know the universe/timeline in Yesterdays Enterprise continued after the Enterprise C left. And the Enterprise C traveling back created a brand new timeline that resulted in the "TNG universe/timeline."
     
  7. Vger23

    Vger23 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2014
    Location:
    New England
    Does anyone have a cyanide pill I could swallow?
     
  8. M'Sharak

    M'Sharak Definitely Herbert. Maybe. Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2002
    Location:
    Terra Inlandia
    Did you mean to post this in a different forum? It's neither a pertinent nor a satisfactory comment on the topic of discussion in this thread.
     
    BillJ and fireproof78 like this.
  9. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Location:
    A type 13 planet in its final stage
    Depends who you ask. When the '09 movie was released, the co-writers Alex Kurtzman and Bob Orci were saying in interviews that the timelines split off in 2233, when Nero appeared and attacked the USS Kelvin (hence, "Kelvin Timeline" being the official name since it's the divergence point). Everything prior to that event should be the same, although the visuals of the movie series don't quite fit that (like San Francisco being far more heavily built up than 25 years of divergence would believably allow)

    Beyond co-writer Simon Pegg on the other hand, says the alternate timeline goes all the way back to the big bang. This makes every continuity bug into a feature and makes life much easier, IMHO.

    Sulu's married to Ben in Beyond and they have a daughter, Demora. Over in DiscoTrek, Paul and Hugh are a thing (at least until next season pulls them apart until the last episode again), and Jett lost a wife in the Klingon war. Discovery was the first Trek to use modern-day labels for being gay, pansexual etc. Previously, Trek novels (which featured gay characters since the 90's) were forbidden from using such terms, ostensibly because humanity would have grown out of labelling relationships by then but probably really to avoid upsetting conservative readers.

    So... whatever story you want to tell with whatever kind of backstory, there's a precedent. Especially in the fanfic world, where I think every combination of the TOS crew have probably been shipped by now:lol:
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  10. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2016
    Never heard (or noticed) this, interesting.

    Fan fiction didn't have this restriction, the advantage of not being official. Can't recall if fan videos used the "forbidden" terms, obviously fan videos had same sex relationships years before the studio movies.
    Pegg's take solves so many discrepancies, removes nothing from the story, and doesn't put the viewers in a position of "just pretend it's all the same."
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  11. ISS Enterprise

    ISS Enterprise Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2016
    It's muddled, purposely, IMO. Disco used the term Prime, but that applies to that timeline. I've heard/read Canon to represent ST before ST 2009 hit theaters

    Again it's an individual choice I guess

    Just write good ST stories, with great characters, plot, etc. N I could care less what timeline it's in.
     
  12. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2016
    I guess that's probably best.
    I do, others share my position, but others still possess yours.

    If Star Trek didn't matter to me, what universe it was in would be trivia, what year the current John Wick movie takes place in doesn't concern me. But for better or worse I have become personally invested in a show that's been building a universe for decades, and I want the show to continue in that continuity.
    could not?
     
  13. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    Canon isn't an individual choice. Canon is a word with religious connotations and is used to describe what is considered 'official' by TPTB. Individuals other than those involved with TPTB have no control over what is and isn't canon.

    Hence continuity, or personal continuity.

    I really wish people would stop misusing the word canon to mean things it doesn't mean.

    It's like using "novel" in place of "anthology". They're both types of reading material, but the two terms aren't interchangeable, and using them interchangably will merely sow confusion.
     
    Masiral and JonnyQuest037 like this.
  14. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Location:
    A type 13 planet in its final stage
    I'd argue that at this point, "canon" in the context of entertainment franchises has undergone a semantic change and means continuity now.
     
  15. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2016
    How the term is used is. As Star Trek has fragmented (or is preconceived to have fragmented) the old accepted usage of "all live action that appears on screen" has altered for some of the fan base. The original canon of TOS through VOY is seen (again by some) to be a separate canon from what follows.

    It is a way of accounting for irreconcilable differences.

    Yes, Trek has always had minor continuity changes, mistakes and retcons, but that is different than major alterations than can't be reconciled with what came before.
    I have no direct control over what TPTB do with their property, I'll concede that. On the other hand, they can call something canon all day long and the most that will get from me is "that's interesting."

    The same as TPTB can call Alex Kurtzman a story-telling and production genius and all I'll say is "that's interesting."
    Sorry, but I can't accommodate you.
     
  16. ISS Enterprise

    ISS Enterprise Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2016
    Oh I desire ST to be in same timeline as pre 2009. That would be my 1st choice, the OG timeline I guess LOL

    But that seems to be passe~ now
     
  17. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    Then how would you differentiate the officially-recognized body of work?
     
  18. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Location:
    A type 13 planet in its final stage
    Officially recognised body of work.

    :shifty:
     
  19. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    Or one could just call it a word that means that. Say, "canon", for instance. :p
     
    JonnyQuest037 likes this.
  20. XCV330

    XCV330 A Being of Pure Caffeine Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2017
    Location:
    jippers on a beach somewhere
    There are people who don't believe in the Apollo landings, flat-earthers and breatharians as well. The unifying factor is that they are all completely wrong.

    Canon is whatever people who own the property say it is. And this is currently what they say, unless there has been some change I am not aware of:

    "Canon is Star Trek continuity as presented on TV and Movie screens. Licensed products like books and comics aren't part of that continuity, so they aren’t canon. And that's that. Part of my job in licensing is to keep track of TV and Movie continuity, so I can help direct licensees in their creation of licensed products. It gets a little tricky because it's constantly evolving, and over the years, Star Trek's various producers and scriptwriters haven't always kept track of/remembered/cared about what's come before." -Paula Block
    https://trekmovie.com/2007/07/22/dc-fontana-on-tas-canon-and-sybok/

     
    DonIago and fireproof78 like this.