Exactly so. I love the concept that the time crystals offers in terms of exploring ideas of fate and time travel. It's not exactly pure science fiction, but neither is Star Trek, so I see no issue having them come back.
What was your impression of Season 2 overall?
- Thread starter Lord Garth
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I felt S2 was a marked improvement on S1 (I appreciate that for some that is not saying much), many of the issues I had with S1 were resolved although my issues with S1 were not as fundamental in nature as some other members.
All the script changes behind the scenes didnt help matters in S1 and the story was a bit disjointed at times, the standalone episodes tended to be the most balanced and well received in both S1 and S2.
I found some of the over arcing story episodes tended to suffer from a feeling that they were being forced to fit rather than flowing together like they should, that could have been due to the issues behind the scenes though, it really did feel at times that over arcing story changes were made mid season in both S1 and S2.
Pike and Spocks addition definitely helped a lot as Star Trek tends to work best when there is a strong commanding presence, Lorca filled that role well in S1 and Pike did the same in S2.
Unfortunately both Burnham and Saru were overshadowed by Pike and Spock which is understandable and the same could now be said of a potential Pike/Enterprise show over shadowing Discovery, reinforced by how much time is spent with the Enterprise and Pike at the end of the finale when it should really have given us a taster for what is to come on Discovery next season.
If that wasnt a lead in for a Pike/Enterprise show I dont know what is, I have to acknowledge that it was the perfect opportunity even if the show hasnt been green lit yet, it almost felt like the whole S2 of Discovery was just an excuse to introduce the Enterprise as soon as possible, mind you it did help the show a lot as well and it did need the help.
If Burnham had eaten that asteroid and Saru had died in the Kaminaar episode I really couldnt have cared less and that is a big problem not just for the characters but for the show itself.
I like both Burnham and Saru (love the design of the Discovery) but they just arent strong enough to carry the show on their own, that isnt the fault of the actors its down to the scripts and story lines, perhaps that will improve in S3 now that they are in the future.
The show really needs stability in S3 with no time jumps, mirror universe shenanigans or rogue AI, one season of just stand alone episodes set in the 23rd century interacting with the species of the Alpha/Beta quadrants and exploring but we arent going to get it.
The best way I can put it is that the show hasnt been given the chance to properly establish itself, I still cant stand S1 of TNG, Voyager or Enterprise (the Xindi storyline was also a yawn fest) as they bored me to tears but they did serve the very important purpose of establishing the shows and what they stood for, DS9 had a better start due to Siskos loss during the battle with the Borg at Wolf359 which was planned well and showed it.
After two seasons we still dont know what Discovery is or stands for because the scriptwriters dont seem to know either, I think they tried to be too clever, moved too fast and tried to do too much at once and because of this some elements of the fandom havent been carried along with it, looking at you @BillJ
Its supposed to be Star Trek yet some fans dont feel like they are a part of the adventure and that problem still remains even though S2 was much better than S1, it needs to be addressed but it doesnt look like it will be in S3.
It really doesnt surprise me that some would prefer a Pike/Enterprise show over Discovery right now although I am happy to watch both, I must admit if I was given a choice by CBS over getting a Discovery S3 or a Pike/Enterprise S1 the decision would be an easy one based on what I have seen so far, ideally with Tilly, Stamets/Culber and Detmer transferring over.
All the script changes behind the scenes didnt help matters in S1 and the story was a bit disjointed at times, the standalone episodes tended to be the most balanced and well received in both S1 and S2.
I found some of the over arcing story episodes tended to suffer from a feeling that they were being forced to fit rather than flowing together like they should, that could have been due to the issues behind the scenes though, it really did feel at times that over arcing story changes were made mid season in both S1 and S2.
Pike and Spocks addition definitely helped a lot as Star Trek tends to work best when there is a strong commanding presence, Lorca filled that role well in S1 and Pike did the same in S2.
Unfortunately both Burnham and Saru were overshadowed by Pike and Spock which is understandable and the same could now be said of a potential Pike/Enterprise show over shadowing Discovery, reinforced by how much time is spent with the Enterprise and Pike at the end of the finale when it should really have given us a taster for what is to come on Discovery next season.
If that wasnt a lead in for a Pike/Enterprise show I dont know what is, I have to acknowledge that it was the perfect opportunity even if the show hasnt been green lit yet, it almost felt like the whole S2 of Discovery was just an excuse to introduce the Enterprise as soon as possible, mind you it did help the show a lot as well and it did need the help.
If Burnham had eaten that asteroid and Saru had died in the Kaminaar episode I really couldnt have cared less and that is a big problem not just for the characters but for the show itself.
I like both Burnham and Saru (love the design of the Discovery) but they just arent strong enough to carry the show on their own, that isnt the fault of the actors its down to the scripts and story lines, perhaps that will improve in S3 now that they are in the future.
The show really needs stability in S3 with no time jumps, mirror universe shenanigans or rogue AI, one season of just stand alone episodes set in the 23rd century interacting with the species of the Alpha/Beta quadrants and exploring but we arent going to get it.
The best way I can put it is that the show hasnt been given the chance to properly establish itself, I still cant stand S1 of TNG, Voyager or Enterprise (the Xindi storyline was also a yawn fest) as they bored me to tears but they did serve the very important purpose of establishing the shows and what they stood for, DS9 had a better start due to Siskos loss during the battle with the Borg at Wolf359 which was planned well and showed it.
After two seasons we still dont know what Discovery is or stands for because the scriptwriters dont seem to know either, I think they tried to be too clever, moved too fast and tried to do too much at once and because of this some elements of the fandom havent been carried along with it, looking at you @BillJ
Its supposed to be Star Trek yet some fans dont feel like they are a part of the adventure and that problem still remains even though S2 was much better than S1, it needs to be addressed but it doesnt look like it will be in S3.
It really doesnt surprise me that some would prefer a Pike/Enterprise show over Discovery right now although I am happy to watch both, I must admit if I was given a choice by CBS over getting a Discovery S3 or a Pike/Enterprise S1 the decision would be an easy one based on what I have seen so far, ideally with Tilly, Stamets/Culber and Detmer transferring over.
You know what? I really hated the time crystals when they were introduced in "Magic to make the sanest man go mad".
I still think they're dumb as rocks (
), but... I really loved what they did with Boreth, and kinda' came around on the time crystals as well...- I loved Boreth - yes, it was essentially "Orc magic", and that scene would better fit into Star Wars than Star Trek, but... I think it was incredibly well done, and having it happen to the more 50s era straight-man boyscout leading-type Pike kinda' sold me on the throwback pulp-aspect of it
- I kinda' love the idea that of all the TNG-era races the fucking Klingons are the ones capable of actual, controlled time-travel - yet at the same time, because of ther honour cult, they have a specific house who's whole job is to keep that technology protected: Something the warriour race of Klingons is best suited to, and may even hint that they didn't chose themselves to guard these crystals.
- It ironically fixes something that bugged me about the VOY finale "Endgame", where Janeway got a time-travel device from a Klingon, who just happened to have one...
- It gives more sense to Mudd's arc: Him conning himself out of Klingon prison, and stealing time-crystals from the Klingons (and not someone else), were probably related events, and much less random then "I just have those"
- Also - full disclosure: I never liked the "clone of Kahless"-arc, he's just a clone - but adding that time-travel aspect to Boreth actually enhances that storyline in retrospect as well - was he really just a clone?
...but I think the introduction of a backstory, limits to it's use (even if it's just a "guardian"), and how well it fits canonically... actually made me like the time crystals. *shudder
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*patiently waits*...but I think the introduction of a backstory, limits to it's use (even if it's just a "guardian"), and how well it fits canonically... actually made me like the time crystals. *shudder
Oh dear. I finished watching season one. I forgot just how badly things were wrapped up. The MU had been a wonderful until we found out about Lorca, but then the trouble then was he suddenly became a moustache-twirler, and was dispatched within an episode. I liked the twist at the end with the nine-month time jump, so we could see a very desperate Starfleet.
Georgiou is fun to watch as her MU counterpart, and we did see Section 31 trying to complete genocide when they introduced the Founder disease via Odo, and I'm glad Burnham managed to change Starfleet's minds on the matter. The Klingon War, however, suddenly boils down to a L'Rell power-play with the threat of taking out all of the leaders? Meh. It's such a contrived end, and I think the last two episodes should have been much more tighter.
So in conclusion, S2 seems like it concluded better as it went out with a bang. Maybe one that didn't make sense all the time, but they did it with conviction.
Georgiou is fun to watch as her MU counterpart, and we did see Section 31 trying to complete genocide when they introduced the Founder disease via Odo, and I'm glad Burnham managed to change Starfleet's minds on the matter. The Klingon War, however, suddenly boils down to a L'Rell power-play with the threat of taking out all of the leaders? Meh. It's such a contrived end, and I think the last two episodes should have been much more tighter.
So in conclusion, S2 seems like it concluded better as it went out with a bang. Maybe one that didn't make sense all the time, but they did it with conviction.
Holy Shit this is awesome!
And yes, they are fans. Asshole-ish ones. But you don't put that much effort into something you're not a fan of.
Also, I think they really hit the nail right on it's head: The real incredible amounf ot nonsense technobabble - absurd even for friggin' Star Trek! - that absurdly fast execution of never-before-used technology - and then that all-of-a-sudden turn into complete soap-y schmaltz. I friggin' love it!
So, Star Trek? Yes, Star Trek is absurd.Holy Shit this is awesome!
And yes, they are fans. Asshole-ish ones. But you don't put that much effort into something you're not a fan of.
Also, I think they really hit the nail right on it's head: The real incredible amounf ot nonsense technobabble - absurd even for friggin' Star Trek! - that absurdly fast execution of never-before-used technology - and then that all-of-a-sudden turn into complete soap-y schmaltz. I friggin' love it!
Add me to the camp that thought it started strong but was inconsistent over the last third.
I like Pike/Spock/Number One. Thought the acting was very good. But the plot lines do not hang together well, at all.
Really thought they went for cheap tricks rather than good, coherent storytelling. And that bothered me. A lot.
#1) Ignoring Nhan in the episode where the other crewmember dies.
#2) Going to great lengths to explain how L'Rell's reign depends on Tyler being dead. Then he goes and openly recruits her to help Disco and rides shotgun as she does? WTF? So we can have cool reveal/cavalry scene?
#3) Seems like Torpedoes would work better vs lots of small ships.
#4) Cornwell departure seemed pretty contrived & non-sensical in a number of ways.
I liked S1 better overall.
FWIW I am finally watching S2 of the Orville (of which I really did not care for S1). But I really am enjoying a lot more for S2. Feels more like Trek to me. All the guest appearances help (Sirtis, Russ, Picardo, Phlox).
S1 Disco > S1 Orville. Not close.
S2 Orville > S2 Disco. So far.
Cannot wait for Picard.
I like Pike/Spock/Number One. Thought the acting was very good. But the plot lines do not hang together well, at all.
Really thought they went for cheap tricks rather than good, coherent storytelling. And that bothered me. A lot.
#1) Ignoring Nhan in the episode where the other crewmember dies.
#2) Going to great lengths to explain how L'Rell's reign depends on Tyler being dead. Then he goes and openly recruits her to help Disco and rides shotgun as she does? WTF? So we can have cool reveal/cavalry scene?
#3) Seems like Torpedoes would work better vs lots of small ships.
#4) Cornwell departure seemed pretty contrived & non-sensical in a number of ways.
I liked S1 better overall.
FWIW I am finally watching S2 of the Orville (of which I really did not care for S1). But I really am enjoying a lot more for S2. Feels more like Trek to me. All the guest appearances help (Sirtis, Russ, Picardo, Phlox).
S1 Disco > S1 Orville. Not close.
S2 Orville > S2 Disco. So far.
Cannot wait for Picard.
Yes I remember all those classic Trek episodes watching Worf taking a piss and the crew urinating in a corner of the shuttle bay in TOS Season 3. #classic
You know, I've been a subscriber to Red Letter Media's YouTube channel ever since their first review of Generations, but I'm increasingly weary of their smug, douchey brand of cynicism. I'm not looking forward to their full review of the season. Two things from that video I will at least agree with, however: Nhan's "yum yum" line was cringey and that it was indisputably kind of ridiculous the way characters would stand around having these dramatic conversations during battle scenes, etc.
I definitely enjoyed season two a good deal... much more than the first season. That's not to say that I didn't enjoy season one, but with the war behind us and the crew finally starting to gel as a family, it was easier to feel more invested in the series. There were even many parts of season two that I could say I loved. I saw a review that described the season as "a mess," which perhaps I cannot entirely argue with, though that made me think, "but it's a glorious mess," to quote something Richard Roeper said once while defending Terry Gilliam's The Brothers Grimm. I dunno, two seasons in, I still feel like it's finding its footing. Discovery is kind of a weird show. I could sum up the premise of every other Star Trek series in a few words, but feel like it might be more of a challenge trying to describe what Disco is supposed to be about.
I think for a parody, this video was not just extremely well made, but hit it very much on the nail, in that it took existing flaws, and exagerated them to unbelievable degree. Actually, I don't even think it was that cynical at all - especially for Red Letter Media.
They have become a lot more jaded about pop-culture stuff - because it's everywhere, so it's just not that exciting anymore, and easier to mock when it's flawed, than when there was only one SF show around on television at all. But on the other hand, they've also become more accepting - I still cringe at all the rape-jokes in Plinkett's prequel reviews, and compared to how absolutely savagely they mocked the TNG era movies - this skit was downright loving. Like - almost how SNL would make a "parody". Mocking technobabble and weird tone shifts. On a Trek show. I think they liked it. They will still crack a ton of jkes at the show's expense - but honestly, I think they will be talking way more positively about season 2 than people are expecting.
I agree with very much everything you said here!
Except the Terry Gilliam comparison. DIS was weird. But not as gloriously weird as that. Terry Gilliam - even at his worst - is still wickedly creative weird. DIS season 2 was messy more in the way that it didn't entirely come together in the end, and had some weird story lapses and logic oversights, in that the main antagonist, Control, is still a weird narrative black box, that didn't hold the season together at all.
But - warts and all - I think this season also showed the people behind the camera genuinely cared about Star Trek, and definitely want to get it right. And I think I'm more forgiving on some failures if I see the heart was at the right place, and they just need a bit more practice and experience.
Also: Where the hell is your profile picture from? That looks great!
The parody itself isn't that bad. Even if turns out they hate the show, that's not really any skin off my back. I mean, It didn't hurt my feelings at all that Mike Stoklasa had a negative view of First Contact, which is a movie I really like. It's not uncommon for me to disagree with their opinions. I guess I do find it a bit irksome that some people just regurgitate whatever the RLM guys say without apparently thinking for themselves, though that's hardly a problem exclusive to RLM fans. I think I just have a less favorable impression of Red Letter Media in general lately due to my growing discomfort with some of the attitudes them seem to espouse, but I don't know if this is really the appropriate place for me to get into that.
Also: Where the hell is your profile picture from? That looks great!
Oh, thanks. It's a self-caricature I drew for my deviantART profile several years back, which I should stress I did ironically, as it's pretty much the opposite how I view myself; my instinct would usually be to depict myself in a far less flattering light.
I drew this other one (which is probably still way too flattering in its own way) as sort of a humorous counterpoint/companion piece not long after:
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Better than season 1 but that's not saying much. Season 1 was just terrible.
They're still forcing characters emotions onto the viewers even when said characters haven't earned that love and emotion. Not for once second did I buy Michael's teary goodbye to Tyler. It's all just so forced.
Character wise, Burnham is pretty unwatchable. Her over-acting really drags the show down. But otherwise the show is getting better.
They're still forcing characters emotions onto the viewers even when said characters haven't earned that love and emotion. Not for once second did I buy Michael's teary goodbye to Tyler. It's all just so forced.
Character wise, Burnham is pretty unwatchable. Her over-acting really drags the show down. But otherwise the show is getting better.
A big part of that problem is that Martin-Green and Latif simply have no chemistry together. It is hard to buy a love story where the actors have no chemistry. It reminds me of Anakin/Padme from the Star Wars prequel trilogy.
I believe Martin-Green is the best actor on the show, but also in a terrible position because the writing for her character is pretty bad. Kinda goes back to the SW prequel trilogy again. Lots of good stuff, but the emotional center of it all is written really poorly (Anakin/Michael Burnham).
I wish they would've attempted a slower burn with Burnham rather than splooging all over the screen in the first ten minutes about how important she is (so important that she has a personal line from a Starfleet ship to Sarek), and never letting up on how great she is in the grand scheme of things. I was eye-rolling her final scenes with Spock in "Such Sweet Sorrow, Part II".
I agree with most of what you say, except for this. Part of being a good actor is knowing when to reign it in and be natural. She just acts so over the top I find it really annoying. Her scene when she wakes up after seeing her mother out of the red angel suit was just cringe-worthy. Having said that, the script is pretty terrible too, which doesn't help. That's another big problem with the show (albeit much better than season 1), the characters speak in statements most of the time, which doesn't help you like or relate to them. Compare to TNG/DS9/VOY's more relaxed interractions and the difference is obvious.
In season 1 or 2? No. Can't even get through Encounter at Farpoint or Caretaker without cringing.
I can at least connect with the characters in DSC far more than I ever could in TNG.
You honestly felt something when they made a big deal of killing a character they'd never developed before that episode? Or when Burnham said goodbye to Tyler? Or when Pike reunited with Spock? Or any scene involving Stamets and Culber?
The show is cheating by fast-forwarding through relationships, and nothing is earned or feels legit because of it.
And if you're enjoying the statement-like way the characters talk, completely unnaturaly and scripted, more power to you. I find it makes the characters hard to like, especially zero personality Burnham.
Sorry, I'm with @fireproof78 on this one. The dialogue in DSC is leaps-and-bounds better than anything we had from TNG/DS9/VOY in terms of flow and naturalistic feel. It's not perfect by any stretch, but it absolutely buries those radio-show style dialogue shows.
